Re: Marine killed in his own home

IIRC we got into a fairly heated debate about this last year, but... :)

It all boils down to the stupidity of the deceased. As a rule, peiple who come out slowly with their hands up don't get shot. People who grab shotguns do. We can debate the righteousness of this, but that's how it is. I won't say this guy "deserved" to get shot, but thise who live by the sword...



On May 27, 2011, at 12:22 PM, Mike Findlay <[email protected]> wrote:

> 
> 
> "Vanessa Guerena says she heard noise outside their home about 9 a.m.
> Thursday and woke her husband who had just gone to bed after working a
> 12-hour shift at the Asarco Mine, she said. There were no sirens or shouts
> of "police," she said."
> 
>> The helmet cam video clearly disputes that.<
> 
> 
> There was 8-10 seconds of siren moments before the raid.  Police siren, car 
> alarm?  I lived in lousy neighborhood for awhile a number of years ago - police 
> sirens were routine and we never thought anything about them.  
> 
> 
> Shouts of police?  The camera/mic is a ways away so it is hard to say for sure 
> what was said by the cops at the door, but "clearly disputes that" ain't clear 
> at all.  Apparently the neighbors don't recall hearing a siren, which is 
> completely understandable if you have ever lived in a marginal neighborhood. 
> 
> 
> http://www.theagitator.com/2011/05/26/video-of-the-pima-county-swat-raid/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+radleybalko+%28The+Agitator%29
> 
> 
> 
>> I speak in no way of justifying the raid or his death.  But one initial
> thought is that with sirens blaring outside and police identifying
> themselves loudly, it is an act of stupidity to arm yourself.   <
> 
> They weren't identifying themselves loudly immediately before entering.  There 
> sure wasn't any shouting going on.  When you are in your own home doing nothing 
> illegal you have every right in the world to arm yourself if you feel 
> threatened.  Assholes wearing a badge does not deprive you of that basic right.  
> Note he didn't come out shooting and there isn't even evidence that he pointed 
> the weapon at the pigs.  
> 
> 
> 
>> I also want to point out that fact he had not shot and the gun was on safety
> is not relevant, nor is his being a Marine.  That fact he was holding it did
> make him a threat and in many other settings if a police officer saw a man
> holding a weapon there would be justification for deadly force.<
> 
> No it wouldn't.  Holding a weapon is not an absolute justification for deadly 
> force.  Deadly force has to be proportionate and it wasn't.  71 shots to none, 
> into a home with possible unarmed occupants, including shots fired blindly by 
> some cowboy pig is not justifiable deadly force.
> 
> 
>> The real issue we should be debating is why his home was selected for a raid
> in the first place, because that element is the primary point of failure if
> he had no drugs or money.  In almost all of the cases I have been reading
> about that has been a huge factor.<
> 
> That isn't the "real" issue we should be debating, it just adds to the 
> despicable conduct of these jackbooted thugs.  Not only did they act 
> murderously, they are entirely without any excuse.  
> 
> 
> http://reason.com/blog/2011/05/22/jose-guerena-evidence-dont-buy
> 
> 
> Mike F. 
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