Re: Marine killed in his own home

Paul Christian Glenn <[email protected]>
Newsgroups gmane.music.dadl.ot
Message-ID <[email protected]>
If you're calling me a sheep, I'd ask why I'm a sheep for subscribing to a different ideology than yours. You're just following someone else's lead, sir. 

At any rate, if this fella didn't own a gun that he intended threaten others with, he'd still be alive. 



On May 27, 2011, at 2:21 PM, Mike Findlay <[email protected]> wrote:

> Baaaa, baaaaa, baaaaa
> 
> Mike F.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Paul Christian Glenn <[email protected]>
> To: DADL (off topic) <[email protected]>
> Sent: Fri, May 27, 2011 2:19:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Marine killed in his own home
> 
> IIRC we got into a fairly heated debate about this last year, but... :)
> 
> It all boils down to the stupidity of the deceased. As a rule, peiple who come 
> out slowly with their hands up don't get shot. People who grab shotguns do. We 
> can debate the righteousness of this, but that's how it is. I won't say this guy 
> "deserved" to get shot, but thise who live by the sword...
> 
> 
> 
> On May 27, 2011, at 12:22 PM, Mike Findlay <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> "Vanessa Guerena says she heard noise outside their home about 9 a.m.
>> Thursday and woke her husband who had just gone to bed after working a
>> 12-hour shift at the Asarco Mine, she said. There were no sirens or shouts
>> of "police," she said."
>> 
>>> The helmet cam video clearly disputes that.<
>> 
>> 
>> There was 8-10 seconds of siren moments before the raid.  Police siren, car 
>> alarm?  I lived in lousy neighborhood for awhile a number of years ago - police 
>> 
>> sirens were routine and we never thought anything about them.  
>> 
>> 
>> Shouts of police?  The camera/mic is a ways away so it is hard to say for sure 
> 
>> what was said by the cops at the door, but "clearly disputes that" ain't clear 
> 
>> at all.  Apparently the neighbors don't recall hearing a siren, which is 
>> completely understandable if you have ever lived in a marginal neighborhood. 
>> 
>> 
>> http://www.theagitator.com/2011/05/26/video-of-the-pima-county-swat-raid/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+radleybalko+%28The+Agitator%29
>> 9
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> I speak in no way of justifying the raid or his death.  But one initial
>> thought is that with sirens blaring outside and police identifying
>> themselves loudly, it is an act of stupidity to arm yourself.   <
>> 
>> They weren't identifying themselves loudly immediately before entering.  There 
> 
>> sure wasn't any shouting going on.  When you are in your own home doing nothing 
>> 
>> illegal you have every right in the world to arm yourself if you feel 
>> threatened.  Assholes wearing a badge does not deprive you of that basic 
>> right.  
>> 
>> Note he didn't come out shooting and there isn't even evidence that he pointed 
> 
>> the weapon at the pigs.  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> I also want to point out that fact he had not shot and the gun was on safety
>> is not relevant, nor is his being a Marine.  That fact he was holding it did
>> make him a threat and in many other settings if a police officer saw a man
>> holding a weapon there would be justification for deadly force.<
>> 
>> No it wouldn't.  Holding a weapon is not an absolute justification for deadly 
>> force.  Deadly force has to be proportionate and it wasn't.  71 shots to none, 
> 
>> into a home with possible unarmed occupants, including shots fired blindly by 
>> some cowboy pig is not justifiable deadly force.
>> 
>> 
>>> The real issue we should be debating is why his home was selected for a raid
>> in the first place, because that element is the primary point of failure if
>> he had no drugs or money.  In almost all of the cases I have been reading
>> about that has been a huge factor.<
>> 
>> That isn't the "real" issue we should be debating, it just adds to the 
>> despicable conduct of these jackbooted thugs.  Not only did they act 
>> murderously, they are entirely without any excuse.  
>> 
>> 
>> http://reason.com/blog/2011/05/22/jose-guerena-evidence-dont-buy
>> 
>> 
>> Mike F. 
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