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I now went through the mails related to the Fishman Triple Play that I have kept on my computer...
The earliest descriptions there are actually already from 13.11.2011 and 15.11.2011, when it was still called "Wireless Guitar Synth" WGS6000.
The most relevant posts (plus some related ones) I'm combining here...
(I hope yahoo doesn't mess up the line spacing as it's now often the case.)
:^) Greg
----- Original Message ------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected] On Behalf Of Wayne
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 5:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Odp: [midiguitar] Re: Guitar Synth Challenge? 20 ms not 30 ms (GR-55)
In my tests, the GR-55 tracks around 20 ms, both in internal and external mode:
http://www.joness.com/gr300/MIDI_SPEED.htm
The slowest sound was, of course, the low E (30 ms) but on average 20 ms. This is about the same as the GI-20.
Wayne
------ Original Message ------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Andras Szalay" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 7:23 PM
Subject: RE: [midiguitar] Re: Guitar Synth Challenge? 20 ms not 30 ms (GR-55)
I cannot display here the graphical hystogram of my GR-55 measurements, I try to describe it.
I played the lowest four notes (E,F,F#,G) quickly, repeatedly about 100 times, in a fast, continuous riff. I measured the MIDI response. 75% of the latency values on the hystogram were under a wide Gauss curve, centered at 28 msec, the tails at 24 and 32 msec. There was only one single value below 20 msec, it was at 19 msec. The 25% rest were randomly distributed between 35 and 75 msec.
The same measurement for the new WGS6000 wireless guitar synthesizer (will be introduced at the winter NAMM) has a thin Gauss curve centered at 15 msec, with the tails at 12 and 17 msec. Only two notes were 18 and 19 msec, 98% was below 17 msec.
Andras Szalay
------ Original Message ------------------------------------------------------------
(http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/midiguitar/message/33907)
From: "Andras Szalay" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 10:08 AM
Subject: RE: [midiguitar] Re: Guitar Synth Challenge? 20 ms not 30 ms (GR-55)
> Do we have a list price on the WGS6000?
I cannot disclose it until it is not yet final. Let this be a surprise :)
>> "WGS6000 wireless guitar synthesizer (will be introduced at the winter NAMM)
>> has a thin Gauss curve centered at 15 msec, with the tails at 12 and 17 msec.
>> Only two notes were 18 and 19 msec, 98% was below 17 msec."
> Is that faster than the latest Axon???
First of all, there is no difference at all between the oldest and newest Axon models; the pitch detection engine is exactly the same in all models, they only differ in the user interface.
As the Axon already reached the theoretical mimimum of latency allowed by physics, the answer could be no. But this is not true, the essence is in the details. Even on some Roland models -- especially the GI-20 -- you can notice pitch detection in slightly more than one vibration period, the same as the Axon or the new system. The question is whether this happens in 1% of the cases, by cleanly picked individual notes, or in 99% of the notes, even in dirty riffs.
The really revolutionary thing about the Axon was not the device itself, but the development system that I built to it. It allowed me to detect and record every error that happened, and theoretically it was possible to squeeze the software to repair the error. However, this process came to an end as the necessary processing power reached the top of the processor's capabilities, and the software became very complicated as I had to concantrate on two things at the same time, the functional performance of the software, and runtime optimization to fit it into the available time.
Now, on the WGS6000 I have a development system that is even far more advanced than the Axon's; it took me four years to build it, while the device itself was developed in three years.
I use now a processor that has practically unlimited available processing power. This means, I can write much simpler software, I can concentrate on the functionality and not on optimization. In spite of that in the current state the software requires just slightly more than 10% of the available processing power, so there are practically unlimited reserves for further improvements, if it would ever be necessary.
Therefore, the new system reaches the minimum latency allowed by physiscs in practically 100% of the cases, which Roland devices perform very rarely, and the Axon maybe in 50-70%.
The enhanced reliability is reflected especially in very stable input to notesheet translation, as John McLaughlin reported me who started to use it middle of September.
Andras Szalay
------ Original Message ------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected] On Behalf Of mnfraga
Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 1:14 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [midiguitar] Re: Fishman Triple Play
Hi all,
> I wonder what this thing will give that the Axon doesn't.
1. Freedom from 13-pin cables;
2. Extreme portability;
3. Same accuracy with less errors;
4. Lower starting price (my Axon NGC77 was US$1200, 4 times more);
5. No pickup needed -- magnetic or piezo.
There are drawbacks too. You'll need one of these for each guitar you have.
Still, you can buy 3 for the price of one Axon 100+pickup.
Marcelo
------ Original Message ------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Andras Szalay" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 9:01 AM
Subject: RE: [midiguitar] Re: Fishman Triple Play
>I am still at the NAMM, but let me answer to some of the questions raised here:
>> You'll need one of these for each guitar you have.
1.) The whole system clips on the guitar with a magnetic fixture, something like the power connector of a MAC laptop, so changing from one guitar to the other will be a matter of a few seconds.
2.) For a 13 pin system you need a GK-2 compatible pickup for each guitar. It costs almost as much as the whole system here, so even if you have separate sytems for each guitar it is much less investment than having 2 * GK-2 + 13 pin cable + an AXON or ROLAND.
I deleted some messages, but I remember remarks like that:
>>"it looks like a toy"
The palm-size box which looks like a toy contains more than 1000 times higher processing power than the original AXON.
>> Does it have fret, string and pick splits like the AXON?
It does not have pick splits, but fret splits and string splits are much more flexible. While in the AXON the corners of four segments meet each other in one common point, here two such points can be defined independently, one for the lower splits and one for the upper. This means that the lower and upper splits can overlap, even fully cover each other as two layers, and the string split of the lower and higher range can be different. This is possible because the lower and upper splits are transmitted on separate MIDI channels, the lower on 1...6, the upper on 11...16. Burr used these features extensively in his demo.
Andras Szalay
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Another interesting post by Marcelo Fraga describes how the occurrence of glitches can vary depending on the software the AX-100 (or the FTP) is used with
------ Original Message ------------------------------------------------------------
From: "mnfraga" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 2:30 PM
Subject: [midiguitar] Re: Fishman Triple Play
Hi Ken, Andras, Mike, and all,
> The Fishman Triple Play does include a magnetic hex pickup, similar to the Roland GK-3.
Pardon my phrasing, what I meant was: no need to BUY a pickup! ;)
I mentioned my first Axon was US$1200. Well, add $179 for the pickup, $159 for the DB50XG soundboard, and the I also spent about $400 in a good midi interface for the computer. Do the math...
Andras: I thought it was screwed in place, so what you are telling me is excellent news. :)
Mike:
> "it looks like a toy"
My old plastic Macbook looked pretty much like a toy, and yet was a million times better than my first PC, heavy, bulky, noisy, and useless for making music.
> "And it's not glitch free. There are still glitches, not many, but they happen."
Have in mind a lot of the "glitches" you may have seen/heard may have to do with Logic more than the system itself. I have worked extensively with Logic. The time I've spent trying to make it respond to midi guitar in a nice way is almost the same I've spent setting up the Axon itself. Since version 8 it became even worse, further stripped from certain functions. I had to shift the basic channel of my Axon to 2, because it won't accept ProgramChange messages on channel 1, for instance.
Then, you hit the very input of the system, which is actually a (bad) script! It further removes midi information from the midi stream, so you have to manually cable the midi input to the instruments in use.
Just so you have an idea. With my Axon properly set but not tweaking the software, I'd say:
1. Playing the internal soundboard: all works fine
2. Playing Kontakt standalone with Gtak: all works fine
3. Playing Kontakt as a plugin in Ableton Live: few glitches
3. Playing Kontakt as a plugin in Logic: glitches and more glitches
4. Playing any Logic instrument: hell seems very close by
Marcelo
------ Original Message ------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected] On Behalf Of hippietim
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 7:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [midiguitar] Re: Fishman Triple Play
Is there any plan to have a receiver that has just a MIDI out? The USB connection to a computer is great but I really don't want to use a computer live - I've got rack synths already.
------ Original Message ------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Andras Szalay" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:46 PM
Subject: RE: [midiguitar] Re: Fishman Triple Play
Believe us, we thought about all these ideas of piezo pickup, nylon string guitar, floor unit with MIDI out, bass guitar compatible unit, etc., and these will come. Also, the Triple Play supports a Hold/Arpeggio/Looper + Chain pedal set, Burr used these in the demo. This will be optional, not part of the basic package. Only if these options would come all at the same time, it would take a hell lot of time until release, and we did not want to let you wait much longer. So, the product that was shown on the leaflet at the NAMM is a first release, different packages and auxiliary extensions will follow soon.
Do not forget that also the first release of the AXON did not work with bass, with piezo, did not have Arpeggiator, etc...
>> I've got rack synths already.
Specifically, a floor unit with MIDI out was my priority, but I had to admit that if we would start to sell a unit with a MIDI OUT only, I cannot name a single rack synth today that would be a good match for the Triple Play, except as second hand :(
Anyway, if you have still more ideas that we probably did not think about, we have open ears for that ;)
Andras Szalay
------ Original Message ------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected] On Behalf Of James
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 6:29 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [midiguitar] Re: Fishman Triple Play
Hi, Andras.
Congratulations on a fine achievement and thanks for monitoring here.
One thing I'd like to be able to do [very important to me] is to use the unit somehow to get an output of a 6 string bass from a six string guitar. IOW, tune the strings down 17-17-17-17-16-16 [Or is the last one 17; I forgot] semitones. What I want is a BEADGC output, one octave down from a regular guitar. Can you do that with the first unit [or the software it connects to]? In case you haven't noticed I'm a midi dummy...
Thanks,
James
------ Original Message ------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Andras Szalay" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 12:46 PM
Subject: RE: [midiguitar] Re: Fishman Triple Play
James,
just like on the AXON, you cannot transpose strings individually, but you can define segments and transpose each separately. For your example, you can define a string split with four strings transposed by 17, and the other two by 16. This works.
Andras
------ Original Message ------------------------------------------------------------
From: "mnfraga" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 8:30 PM
Subject: [midiguitar] Re: Fishman Triple Play
Hi James and all,
> One thing I'd like to be able to do [very important to me] is to use
> the unit somehow to get an output of a 6 string bass from a six string
> guitar.
This can be achieved at the software level. The Triple Play will send one string per channel (like the Axon), so you can transpose them individually per channel. There are other options involving detuning the guitar and transposing in the synth too. For instance, you can lower strings 1-4 (or 5) by one semitone and transpose them all 16 semitones, then you get the 17 and 16 combination you want. (I'm not familiar with bass tunings, sorry!)
Since this first run of the Triple Play will be USB only (midi out will follow, as Andras said), you'll probably use a DAW software and softsynths/plugins. I'd put a vote down for Kontakt with Gtak, IMHO!
(You can still output midi to external synths, transposed the way you'd like, but that's something for another topic.)
Marcelo
------ Original Message ------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Andras Szalay" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 11:45 PM
Subject: RE: [midiguitar] Fishman TriplePlay details
>> There is a Fishman TriplePlay OSX Control GUI app, and I assume a windows version will exist too?
We had three demo stations at the NAMM, two on MACs, the third one at the back of the booth was a Windows PC.
>> Can a user buy a base kit, and then purchase additional USB dongles to connect to multiple MIDI hardware devices? If so, how much for an extra USB dongle?
If this is what you mean, one transmitter can send data to one receiver only, this is strictly limited, since communication is bidirectional and every message is acknowledged back from the receiver to avoid the possibility of data loss. But of course, you can chain an arbitrary set of MIDI and USB devices to respond to the transmitter, but these must be connected with each other through MIDI ort USB cables, depending on the setup. So, only one receiver for one transmitter.
>> I understand the intial version will not have wireless transmission of the normal Guitar signal. Since the audio from the guitar is not transmitted, what are the functions of the Mix and Guitar positions of this switch?
If you go to the PC with the guitar signal and insert our plugin in the signal chain you can turn the guitar signal on or off. This is for the starter kit. On stage, if you go to the guitar amp directly, for the floor unit -- what exists as a prototype, that John McLaughlin is using - you can couple the guitar signal through the stomp box, and it is switched on or off by a relais.
>> If your band has two guitarists, each with a Triple Play equipped guitar, can you set each to transmit on a different frequency? Or must you transmit on different MIDI channels?
The system uses one of 80 radio channels, so the number of device pairs is almost unlimited. You just press a pushbutton on both the transmitter and the receiver that you want to work together, and they tune to each other automatically.
>> I never saw Burr playing more than two instruments or a different instrument on each string. Assuming you had a fast enough computer to handle the six softsynth plug-in instances, can the Triple Play transmit a different MIDI channel on each string?
This is what it basically does, and that was the case in all demos. It sends the lower fret split on channels 1...6 and the upper split on channels 11...16; the hold, arpeggio and looper is on channel 7, so normally it uses altogether 13 channels. But just like the AXON it can be configured to POLY MODE, sending all strings on channel 1, if a compromise cannot be avoided. But in this case there are no splits.
>> Is Pitch bend range adjustable?
Yes, 0...24 semitones.
>> What are the dimensions of the control box on the guitar?
It is about the same surface on the guitar as the GK-2, but much more flat, so it fits easily into a hard case without carving it out...
>> what are the minimum and "ideal" system requirements for the computer in question? Is it best to use a Mac? or will a fast Windows PC work too?
System requirements depend on the soft synth that you use, it determines 99% of the needed computing power. PC and MAC are equally good to use.
Andras Szalay
------ Original Message ------------------------------------------------------------
From: "'Andras Szalay' [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2015 3:29 PM
Subject: RE: [midiguitar] Re: Fishman TriplePlay Wireless Guitar MIDI Controller Versus??
>>> Then after the Axon demise, FTP goes to a computer-based platform (which
>>> Szalay should arguably have done long before now ) to get the processing
>>> speed up.. but which has major disadvantages ( like having to rely on a
>>> laptop to gig with) and then it throws in a radio system to help with
>>> the speed and the 'spaghetti cable syndrome', all of which adds extra
>>> costs...but for what?
There are several misunderstandings here.
The FTP is a completely self-contained device (the whole processing happens on the guitar unit), the computer is just receiving the MIDI signals from the wireless dongle. In January at the NAMM a new product was introduced by Fishman, a stomp-box that hosts the wireless dongle and can drive hardware synths, so you do not have to take a laptop to your gig.
The processor in the FTP can perform the typical signal processing tasks significantly faster than computers, not to mention that it does not have to fight with the speed-limiting factors of computer OS, like input and output buffers that are necessary on a computer but cause a noticeable latency.
The radio chips used by the FTP are significantly cheaper than a Roland 13 pin cable. So the radio solution is not only convenient, it is cost efficient as well, and since the latency of the radio is less than 0.5 msec there is no mentionable drawback.
Andras Szalay
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