Re: Shuffling and unshuffling (was Re: ID3 tag question)

On Tue, Feb 18, 2003 at 12:56:43PM -0800, dean blackketter wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 18, 2003, at 11:31  AM, Dave Sherohman wrote:
> > Perhaps, but not, IMO, as annoying as putting my entire collection on
> > shuffle and knowing that, once I hear a song, I'm guaranteed not to
> > hear it again for a several weeks (unless I periodically unshuffle/
> > reshuffle manually).
> Uh, I'm not sure I understand how reshuffling makes this a better?

Reshuffling reintroduces a chance that the song may be played again.
Yes, statistically, the song will be played with the same frequency
either way, but sequential play through a shuffled playlist is
evenly-distributed.  Random play is lumpy.

> > 1)  Random play, in the XMMS sense.  This is not the same as playing
> > sequentially from a shuffled playlist.
> I'm not sure why random would be superior in any way to shuffle?

1)  It allows any arbitrary song to come up twice before all others
have been played once.  (This is, of course, a matter of personal
preference.  Me, I prefer the randomness.  I get the distinct
impression that you prefer to have everything played with guaranteed
even frequency.)

2)  It allows you to just turn it on and walk away without having the
songs repeatedly come up in the same set order.  Sequential play
through a shuffled list is decidedly non-random if the list is then
left to loop 10 times without reshuffling.

> If 
> you want some songs more often than others, add them multiple times to 
> your playlist and then shuffle.

That just biases the playlist to bring up that song more often.  It
is not random play.  Random play allows _any_ song to play at _any_
time.[1]

Grab a copy of XMMS (or WinAmp, if that's the way you swing).  Create
a playlist with 5 songs, ordered A, B, C, D, E.  Turn the "random"
switch on.  Hit 'next' a few times.  Doing this just now, I got the
play order E A C B D E B D A C B A.  Always random.

Now turn off "random", hit "Randomise List", and see it reorder the
playlist to, e.g., E A C D B.  Hit 'next' a few times.  You get E A C
D B E A C D B... just like the slim's existing shuffle function.

And, yes, I can get 'random-equivalent' functionality from my slim in
two ways:

1)  Add each song to the playlist an infinite number of times (well,
OK, a couple hundred times should be close enough that I can't tell
the difference) and shuffle it.

2)  Hit the 'shuffle' button twice after each song plays.

I don't particularly care for having to do either one.

> > 2)  Inability to delete a song from a shuffled playlist without
> > unshuffling, deleting, and reshuffling.
> You can do this now.  Try it with 3.1b2.

Yeah, I figured that was probably fixed by now.


[1]  Granted, random play can be set up so as to do biased selection -
reducing the chance of a recently-played song coming up again,
increasing the odds of frequently-played songs or those that are
tagged as ones you like more being selected - but that's not what I'm
asking for at this point.  While that sort of thing would be great,
all I really want is straight, unbiased random play.

-- 
The freedoms that we enjoy presently are the most important victories of the
White Hats over the past several millennia, and it is vitally important that
we don't give them up now, only because we are frightened.
  - Eolake Stobblehouse (http://stobblehouse.com/text/battle.html)

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