Re: Questions on mesostics and the software Cage used
David Bellows <[email protected]> Sun, 13 Jan 2019 21:03:16 -0800
| Newsgroups | gmane.music.john-cage |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CAHyhA=2XfPQVOKp5gx7ZKjFqHy+t2hnsm18snDF_wjKOze5uFw@mail.gmail.com> |
--00000000000055f141057f63f7bb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks for the link. Contacting Andrew Culver is a good idea. It might be tricky but there are bread crumbs around online so I'll give those a shot. I can't help but think that when Cage needed to generate a large amount of mesostics he would let the software choose the wing words and not take the time to do so himself. But that's speculation. On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 8:57 PM Herb Levy <[email protected]> wrote: > And, yes, I wrote that wrong - Andrew Culver did write most of the > software on the list I linked to, but he clearly identifies the listed > programs that Jim Rosenberg wrote for Cage. I apologize for my lack of > clarity. > > On Sunday, January 13, 2019, 10:28:02 PM CST, Herb Levy < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Here's Andrew Culver's list of software he developed for John Cage: Culver > - John Cage Computer Programs > <http://www.anarchicharmony.org/People/Culver/CagePrograms.html> > > It's my understanding that most of these programs are not available. I > don't know if Andrew Culver is on this list, but from this web page you > should be able find your way to a link from which you may be able to ask > him questions. > > Culver - John Cage Computer Programs > > Anarchic Harmony: John Cage Computer Programs > <http://www.anarchicharmony.org/People/Culver/CagePrograms.html> > > > > On Sunday, January 13, 2019, 9:41:15 PM CST, David Bellows < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Hello all, > > I'm finishing up a mesostic generating program that I'm using for a > larger project. While researching for it, I came across a number of > claims about how Cage generated them. > > I get that the process evolved over time. But what I'm most interested > is in the software he used to generate mesostics. > > If I'm reading everything correctly, it looks like Jim Rosenberg wrote > the program MESOLIST for this purpose. I am having a difficult time > finding details about the program and hoping some people here can > help. > > 1. Is it available anywhere for downloading or studying? > > 2. Did the program generate the wing words? > > 3. Did the program follow only the 100% rule or allow for the 50% rule > also? > > 4. I've read that Cage chose to leave out some wing words. Is this > true for how he used the program or was that just something he did on > the mesostics he generated by hand? > > 5. Right now my program chooses up to seven words on either side of > the spine word following the 100% rule for all the words. Next I will > have it limit the number of words randomly but they will still be in > order (ie, anywhere from 0 to 7 of the preceding/following words). A > mesostic generator I see online > (http://vyh.pythonanywhere.com/psmeso/) chooses randomly from all the > words between spine words following the 100% rule. My approach will > generate fragments that make sense since it can potentially string up > to 15 words in a row from the source text while the online one won't > do so. Which approach more closely matches Rosenberg's program? > > I'm really a terrible programmer (I'm a composer and not a > programmer), so the fact that I've gotten this much working probably > means I won't change how it works on a fundamental level but I would > like to have an idea about how closely my approach matches the > software Cage used. > > Thanks everyone, > Dave Bellows > --00000000000055f141057f63f7bb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Thanks for the link. Contacting Andrew Culver is a go= od idea. It might be tricky but there are bread crumbs around online so I&#= 39;ll give those a shot.</div><div><br></div><div>I can't help but thin= k that when Cage needed to generate a large amount of mesostics he would le= t the software choose the wing words and not take the time to do so himself= . But that's speculation. </div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"= gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 8:57 PM Herb Levy <= ;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>= wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px = 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><di= v class=3D"gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp780425e3yahoo-style-wrap" style=3D= "font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div= ></div> <div>And, yes, I wrote that wrong - Andrew Culver did write most of= the software on the list I linked to, but he clearly identifies the listed= programs that Jim Rosenberg wrote for Cage. I apologize for my lack of cla= rity. <br></div><div><br></div> =20 </div><div id=3D"gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyahoo_quoted= _8076464440" class=3D"gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyahoo_quoted"> <div style=3D"font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,= Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(38,40,42)"> =20 <div> On Sunday, January 13, 2019, 10:28:02 PM CST, Herb Levy= <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">herb.levy= @sbcglobal.net</a>> wrote: </div> <div><br></div> <div><br></div> <div><div id=3D"gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyiv00= 80460043"><div><div class=3D"gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyiv00804= 60043ydp1579b525yahoo-style-wrap" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helve= tica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div></div> <div>Here's Andrew Culver's list of software he developed f= or John Cage: <a shape=3D"rect" class=3D"gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b= 33eeyiv0080460043enhancr_card_7831497334" href=3D"http://www.anarchicharmon= y.org/People/Culver/CagePrograms.html" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">C= ulver - John Cage Computer Programs</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none= ">It's my understanding that most of these programs are not available. = I don't know if Andrew Culver is on this list, but from this web page y= ou should be able find your way to a link from which you may be able to ask= him questions.<br clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div = class=3D"gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyiv0080460043ydp8c5fa3cbyaho= o-link-enhancr-card gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyiv0080460043ydp8= c5fa3cbyahoo-link-enhancr-not-allow-cover gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967= b33eeyiv0080460043ydp8c5fa3cbymail-preserve-class gmail-m_44610898058733190= 56ydp967b33eeyiv0080460043ydp8c5fa3cbymail-preserve-style" id=3D"gmail-m_44= 61089805873319056ydp967b33eeyiv0080460043ydp8c5fa3cbenhancr_card_7831497334= " style=3D"max-width:400px;font-family:Helvetica Neue,Segoe UI,Helvetica,Ar= ial,sans-serif"><a shape=3D"rect" class=3D"gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp96= 7b33eeyiv0080460043ydp8c5fa3cbyahoo-enhancr-cardlink" href=3D"http://www.an= archicharmony.org/People/Culver/CagePrograms.html" style=3D"text-decoration= :none;color:rgb(0,0,0)" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank"><table class=3D"= gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyiv0080460043ydp8c5fa3cbcard-wrapper = gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyiv0080460043ydp8c5fa3cbyahoo-ignore-= table" style=3D"max-width:400px" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border= =3D"0"><tbody><tr><td colspan=3D"1" rowspan=3D"1" width=3D"400"><table clas= s=3D"gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyiv0080460043ydp8c5fa3cbcard gma= il-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyiv0080460043ydp8c5fa3cbyahoo-ignore-tab= le" style=3D"max-width:400px;border-width:1px;border-style:solid;border-col= or:rgb(224,228,233);border-radius:2px" width=3D"100%" cellspacing=3D"0" cel= lpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td colspan=3D"1" rowspan=3D"1"><tab= le class=3D"gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyiv0080460043ydp8c5fa3cbc= ard-info gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyiv0080460043ydp8c5fa3cbyaho= o-ignore-table" style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255);background-repea= t:repeat;background-image:none;background-size:auto auto;width:100%;max-wid= th:400px;border-radius:0px 0px 2px 2px;border-top:1px solid rgb(224,228,233= )" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td colspan= =3D"1" rowspan=3D"1" style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255);padding:16p= x 0px 16px 12px;vertical-align:top;border-radius:0px 0px 0px 2px"></td><td = colspan=3D"1" rowspan=3D"1" style=3D"vertical-align:middle;padding:12px 24p= x 16px 12px;width:99%;font-family:Helvetica Neue,Segoe UI,Helvetica,Arial,s= ans-serif;border-radius:0px 0px 2px"><h2 class=3D"gmail-m_44610898058733190= 56ydp967b33eeyiv0080460043ydp8c5fa3cbcard-title" style=3D"font-size:14px;li= ne-height:19px;margin:0px 0px 6px;font-family:Helvetica Neue,Segoe UI,Helve= tica,Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(38,40,42)">Culver - John Cage Computer Prog= rams</h2><p class=3D"gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyiv0080460043ydp= 8c5fa3cbcard-description" style=3D"font-size:12px;line-height:16px;margin:0= px;color:rgb(151,155,167)">Anarchic Harmony: John Cage Computer Programs</p= ></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></ta= ble></a></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><= div><br clear=3D"none"></div> =20 </div><div class=3D"gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyiv008046= 0043yqt0390275134" id=3D"gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyiv008046004= 3yqt40229"><div class=3D"gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyiv008046004= 3ydp5bdea5c1yahoo_quoted" id=3D"gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyiv00= 80460043ydp5bdea5c1yahoo_quoted_7737916445"> <div style=3D"font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,= Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(38,40,42)"> =20 <div> On Sunday, January 13, 2019, 9:41:15 PM CST, David Bell= ows <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">davebell= [email protected]</a>> wrote: </div> <div><br clear=3D"none"></div> <div><br clear=3D"none"></div> <div><div dir=3D"ltr">Hello all,<br clear=3D"none"></div><d= iv dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">I'm finishing = up a mesostic generating program that I'm using for a<br clear=3D"none"= ></div><div dir=3D"ltr">larger project. While researching for it, I came ac= ross a number of<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">claims about how = Cage generated them.<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"= none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">I get that the process evolved over time. But = what I'm most interested<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">is in= the software he used to generate mesostics.<br clear=3D"none"></div><div d= ir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">If I'm reading eve= rything correctly, it looks like Jim Rosenberg wrote<br clear=3D"none"></di= v><div dir=3D"ltr">the program MESOLIST for this purpose. I am having a dif= ficult time<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">finding details about = the program and hoping some people here can<br clear=3D"none"></div><div di= r=3D"ltr">help.<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"= ></div><div dir=3D"ltr">1. Is it available anywhere for downloading or stud= ying?<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><di= v dir=3D"ltr">2. Did the program generate the wing words?<br clear=3D"none"= ></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">3. Did th= e program follow only the 100% rule or allow for the 50% rule also?<br clea= r=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"= >4. I've read that Cage chose to leave out some wing words. Is this<br = clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">true for how he used the program or w= as that just something he did on<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">t= he mesostics he generated by hand?<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"= ><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">5. Right now my program chooses = up to seven words on either side of<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr= ">the spine word following the 100% rule for all the words. Next I will<br = clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">have it limit the number of words ran= domly but they will still be in<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">or= der (ie, anywhere from 0 to 7 of the preceding/following words). A<br clear= =3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">mesostic generator I see online<br clear= =3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">(<a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://vyh.pyth= onanywhere.com/psmeso/" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://vyh.pytho= nanywhere.com/psmeso/</a>) chooses randomly from all the<br clear=3D"none">= </div><div dir=3D"ltr">words between spine words following the 100% rule. M= y approach will<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">generate fragments= that make sense since it can potentially string up<br clear=3D"none"></div= ><div dir=3D"ltr">to 15 words in a row from the source text while the onlin= e one won't<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">do so. Which appro= ach more closely matches Rosenberg's program?<br clear=3D"none"></div><= div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">I'm really a = terrible programmer (I'm a composer and not a<br clear=3D"none"></div><= div dir=3D"ltr">programmer), so the fact that I've gotten this much wor= king probably<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">means I won't ch= ange how it works on a fundamental level but I would<br clear=3D"none"></di= v><div dir=3D"ltr">like to have an idea about how closely my approach match= es the<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">software Cage used.<br clea= r=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"= >Thanks everyone,<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Dave Bellows<br = clear=3D"none"></div></div> </div> </div></div></div></div></div> </div> </div></div></blockquote></div> --00000000000055f141057f63f7bb--