Re: Questions on mesostics and the software Cage used
David Bellows <[email protected]> Sun, 13 Jan 2019 23:20:40 -0800
| Newsgroups | gmane.music.john-cage |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CAHyhA=25BD1PyyoJW=VP3saznkmVU67st1oOiT4K_FLtMwWkUw@mail.gmail.com> |
--000000000000912987057f65e2fd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hey Stefano I had forgotten all about that thread -- things got pretty toxic after a while. Nonetheless, I will go through it and see what I can find. I've been doing more research and after playing around with my software am discovering that adding options for some things isn't so difficult after all. I've got one more significant thing to change then I think I'll be covering most possibilities. I'll create a separate thread with those results to see what people think. In the meantime, hopefully other people will come by and have some answers to my initial questions. And I would enjoy seeing your version. I am doing mine in Lua (since the rest of my project is in Lua). Dave On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 10:06 PM Stefano Pocci <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi David, > I remember a 2013 thread on this list named "mesostic generator" which > triggered all kinds of nice responses to the topic you are tackling. Look > for it in the list archives ( > https://lists.virginia.edu/sympa/arc/silence/2013-04/thrd2.html#00074). > I ended up writing my own mesostic generator, but probably in the most > uncomfortable language of all, Java, instead of using Python, as I was > suggested afterwards. > Andrew Culver is in this list, so he is a good candidate to answer some of > your questions. > I don't recall all the details, but when I wrote my generator I had to > face choices which could be similar to what the developer of such software > had to face when he started to fiddle with the generator for Cage in the > first place. > One day I will attach it to my website www.johncage.it :) > Good luck, > Stefano > > > > > Il giorno lun 14 gen 2019 alle ore 07:03 David Bellows < > [email protected]> ha scritto: > >> Thanks for the link. Contacting Andrew Culver is a good idea. It might be >> tricky but there are bread crumbs around online so I'll give those a shot. >> >> I can't help but think that when Cage needed to generate a large amount >> of mesostics he would let the software choose the wing words and not take >> the time to do so himself. But that's speculation. >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 8:57 PM Herb Levy <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> And, yes, I wrote that wrong - Andrew Culver did write most of the >>> software on the list I linked to, but he clearly identifies the listed >>> programs that Jim Rosenberg wrote for Cage. I apologize for my lack of >>> clarity. >>> >>> On Sunday, January 13, 2019, 10:28:02 PM CST, Herb Levy < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Here's Andrew Culver's list of software he developed for John Cage: Culver >>> - John Cage Computer Programs >>> <http://www.anarchicharmony.org/People/Culver/CagePrograms.html> >>> >>> It's my understanding that most of these programs are not available. I >>> don't know if Andrew Culver is on this list, but from this web page you >>> should be able find your way to a link from which you may be able to ask >>> him questions. >>> >>> Culver - John Cage Computer Programs >>> >>> Anarchic Harmony: John Cage Computer Programs >>> <http://www.anarchicharmony.org/People/Culver/CagePrograms.html> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sunday, January 13, 2019, 9:41:15 PM CST, David Bellows < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hello all, >>> >>> I'm finishing up a mesostic generating program that I'm using for a >>> larger project. While researching for it, I came across a number of >>> claims about how Cage generated them. >>> >>> I get that the process evolved over time. But what I'm most interested >>> is in the software he used to generate mesostics. >>> >>> If I'm reading everything correctly, it looks like Jim Rosenberg wrote >>> the program MESOLIST for this purpose. I am having a difficult time >>> finding details about the program and hoping some people here can >>> help. >>> >>> 1. Is it available anywhere for downloading or studying? >>> >>> 2. Did the program generate the wing words? >>> >>> 3. Did the program follow only the 100% rule or allow for the 50% rule >>> also? >>> >>> 4. I've read that Cage chose to leave out some wing words. Is this >>> true for how he used the program or was that just something he did on >>> the mesostics he generated by hand? >>> >>> 5. Right now my program chooses up to seven words on either side of >>> the spine word following the 100% rule for all the words. Next I will >>> have it limit the number of words randomly but they will still be in >>> order (ie, anywhere from 0 to 7 of the preceding/following words). A >>> mesostic generator I see online >>> (http://vyh.pythonanywhere.com/psmeso/) chooses randomly from all the >>> words between spine words following the 100% rule. My approach will >>> generate fragments that make sense since it can potentially string up >>> to 15 words in a row from the source text while the online one won't >>> do so. Which approach more closely matches Rosenberg's program? >>> >>> I'm really a terrible programmer (I'm a composer and not a >>> programmer), so the fact that I've gotten this much working probably >>> means I won't change how it works on a fundamental level but I would >>> like to have an idea about how closely my approach matches the >>> software Cage used. >>> >>> Thanks everyone, >>> Dave Bellows >>> >> --000000000000912987057f65e2fd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hey Stefano</div><div><br></div><div>I had forgotten = all about that thread -- things got pretty toxic after a while. Nonetheless= , I will go through it and see what I can find.</div><div><br></div><div>I&= #39;ve been doing more research and after playing around with my software a= m discovering that adding options for some things isn't so difficult af= ter all. I've got one more significant thing to change then I think I&#= 39;ll be covering most possibilities.</div><div><br></div><div>I'll cre= ate a separate thread with those results to see what people think.</div><di= v><br></div><div>In the meantime, hopefully other people will come by and h= ave some answers to my initial questions.</div><div><br></div><div>And I wo= uld enjoy seeing your version. I am doing mine in Lua (since the rest of my= project is in Lua).<br></div><div><br></div><div>Dave<br></div></div><br><= div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 10:06 PM= Stefano Pocci <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">stefanodoug76= @gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style= =3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding= -left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi David,<div>I remember a 201= 3 thread on this list named "mesostic generator" which triggered = all kinds of nice responses to the topic you are tackling. Look for it in t= he list archives (<a href=3D"https://lists.virginia.edu/sympa/arc/silence/2= 013-04/thrd2.html#00074" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.virginia.edu/sympa= /arc/silence/2013-04/thrd2.html#00074</a>).</div><div>I ended up writing my= own mesostic generator, but probably in the most uncomfortable language of= all, Java, instead of using Python, as I was suggested afterwards.</div><d= iv>Andrew Culver is in this list, so he is a good candidate to answer some = of your questions.=C2=A0</div><div>I don't recall all the details, but = when I wrote my generator I had to face choices which could be similar to w= hat the developer of such software had to face when he started to fiddle wi= th the generator for Cage in the first place.</div><div>One day I will atta= ch it to my website <a href=3D"http://www.johncage.it" target=3D"_blank">ww= w.johncage.it</a> :)</div><div>Good luck,</div><div>Stefano</div><div><br><= /div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot= e"><div dir=3D"ltr">Il giorno lun 14 gen 2019 alle ore 07:03 David Bellows = <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">davebellows@= gmail.com</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st= yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd= ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Thanks for the link. Contacting Andrew = Culver is a good idea. It might be tricky but there are bread crumbs around= online so I'll give those a shot.</div><div><br></div><div>I can't= help but think that when Cage needed to generate a large amount of mesosti= cs he would let the software choose the wing words and not take the time to= do so himself. But that's speculation. </div><div><br></div></div><br>= <div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 8:57 PM= Herb Levy <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank"= >[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail= _quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204= ,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"gmail-m_8257871209972085023gmail= -m_8263525966453414718gmail-m_-6848716716840189008gmail-m_44610898058733190= 56ydp780425e3yahoo-style-wrap" style=3D"font-family:"Helvetica Neue&qu= ot;,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div></div> <div>And, yes, I wrote that wrong - Andrew Culver did write most of= the software on the list I linked to, but he clearly identifies the listed= programs that Jim Rosenberg wrote for Cage. I apologize for my lack of cla= rity. <br></div><div><br></div> =20 </div><div id=3D"gmail-m_8257871209972085023gmail-m_826352596645341= 4718gmail-m_-6848716716840189008gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyahoo= _quoted_8076464440" class=3D"gmail-m_8257871209972085023gmail-m_82635259664= 53414718gmail-m_-6848716716840189008gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eey= ahoo_quoted"> <div style=3D"font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,= Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(38,40,42)"> =20 <div> On Sunday, January 13, 2019, 10:28:02 PM CST, Herb Levy= <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">herb.levy= @sbcglobal.net</a>> wrote: </div> <div><br></div> <div><br></div> <div><div id=3D"gmail-m_8257871209972085023gmail-m_82635259= 66453414718gmail-m_-6848716716840189008gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33= eeyiv0080460043"><div><div class=3D"gmail-m_8257871209972085023gmail-m_8263= 525966453414718gmail-m_-6848716716840189008gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp96= 7b33eeyiv0080460043ydp1579b525yahoo-style-wrap" style=3D"font-family:"= Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div></div> <div>Here's Andrew Culver's list of software he developed f= or John Cage: <a shape=3D"rect" class=3D"gmail-m_8257871209972085023gmail-m= _8263525966453414718gmail-m_-6848716716840189008gmail-m_4461089805873319056= ydp967b33eeyiv0080460043enhancr_card_7831497334" href=3D"http://www.anarchi= charmony.org/People/Culver/CagePrograms.html" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_b= lank">Culver - John Cage Computer Programs</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear= =3D"none">It's my understanding that most of these programs are not ava= ilable. I don't know if Andrew Culver is on this list, but from this we= b page you should be able find your way to a link from which you may be abl= e to ask him questions.<br clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></d= iv><div class=3D"gmail-m_8257871209972085023gmail-m_8263525966453414718gmai= l-m_-6848716716840189008gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyiv0080460043= ydp8c5fa3cbyahoo-link-enhancr-card gmail-m_8257871209972085023gmail-m_82635= 25966453414718gmail-m_-6848716716840189008gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967= b33eeyiv0080460043ydp8c5fa3cbyahoo-link-enhancr-not-allow-cover gmail-m_825= 7871209972085023gmail-m_8263525966453414718gmail-m_-6848716716840189008gmai= l-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyiv0080460043ydp8c5fa3cbymail-preserve-cl= ass gmail-m_8257871209972085023gmail-m_8263525966453414718gmail-m_-68487167= 16840189008gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyiv0080460043ydp8c5fa3cbym= ail-preserve-style" id=3D"gmail-m_8257871209972085023gmail-m_82635259664534= 14718gmail-m_-6848716716840189008gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyiv0= 080460043ydp8c5fa3cbenhancr_card_7831497334" style=3D"max-width:400px;font-= family:"Helvetica Neue","Segoe UI",Helvetica,Arial,sans= -serif"><a shape=3D"rect" class=3D"gmail-m_8257871209972085023gmail-m_82635= 25966453414718gmail-m_-6848716716840189008gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967= b33eeyiv0080460043ydp8c5fa3cbyahoo-enhancr-cardlink" href=3D"http://www.ana= rchicharmony.org/People/Culver/CagePrograms.html" style=3D"text-decoration:= none;color:rgb(0,0,0)" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank"><table class=3D"g= mail-m_8257871209972085023gmail-m_8263525966453414718gmail-m_-6848716716840= 189008gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyiv0080460043ydp8c5fa3cbcard-wr= apper gmail-m_8257871209972085023gmail-m_8263525966453414718gmail-m_-684871= 6716840189008gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyiv0080460043ydp8c5fa3cb= yahoo-ignore-table" style=3D"max-width:400px" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding= =3D"0" border=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td colspan=3D"1" rowspan=3D"1" width=3D"400= "><table class=3D"gmail-m_8257871209972085023gmail-m_8263525966453414718gma= il-m_-6848716716840189008gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyiv008046004= 3ydp8c5fa3cbcard gmail-m_8257871209972085023gmail-m_8263525966453414718gmai= l-m_-6848716716840189008gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyiv0080460043= ydp8c5fa3cbyahoo-ignore-table" style=3D"max-width:400px;border-width:1px;bo= rder-style:solid;border-color:rgb(224,228,233);border-radius:2px" width=3D"= 100%" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td colsp= an=3D"1" rowspan=3D"1"><table class=3D"gmail-m_8257871209972085023gmail-m_8= 263525966453414718gmail-m_-6848716716840189008gmail-m_4461089805873319056yd= p967b33eeyiv0080460043ydp8c5fa3cbcard-info gmail-m_8257871209972085023gmail= -m_8263525966453414718gmail-m_-6848716716840189008gmail-m_44610898058733190= 56ydp967b33eeyiv0080460043ydp8c5fa3cbyahoo-ignore-table" style=3D"backgroun= d-color:rgb(255,255,255);background-repeat:repeat;background-image:none;bac= kground-size:auto auto;width:100%;max-width:400px;border-radius:0px 0px 2px= 2px;border-top:1px solid rgb(224,228,233)" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding= =3D"0" border=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td colspan=3D"1" rowspan=3D"1" style=3D"bac= kground-color:rgb(255,255,255);padding:16px 0px 16px 12px;vertical-align:to= p;border-radius:0px 0px 0px 2px"></td><td colspan=3D"1" rowspan=3D"1" style= =3D"vertical-align:middle;padding:12px 24px 16px 12px;width:99%;font-family= :"Helvetica Neue","Segoe UI",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif= ;border-radius:0px 0px 2px"><h2 class=3D"gmail-m_8257871209972085023gmail-m= _8263525966453414718gmail-m_-6848716716840189008gmail-m_4461089805873319056= ydp967b33eeyiv0080460043ydp8c5fa3cbcard-title" style=3D"font-size:14px;line= -height:19px;margin:0px 0px 6px;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",&quo= t;Segoe UI",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(38,40,42)">Culver - J= ohn Cage Computer Programs</h2><p class=3D"gmail-m_8257871209972085023gmail= -m_8263525966453414718gmail-m_-6848716716840189008gmail-m_44610898058733190= 56ydp967b33eeyiv0080460043ydp8c5fa3cbcard-description" style=3D"font-size:1= 2px;line-height:16px;margin:0px;color:rgb(151,155,167)">Anarchic Harmony: J= ohn Cage Computer Programs</p></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody><= /table></td></tr></tbody></table></a></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><d= iv><br clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div> =20 </div><div class=3D"gmail-m_8257871209972085023gmail-m_826352596645= 3414718gmail-m_-6848716716840189008gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33eeyi= v0080460043yqt0390275134" id=3D"gmail-m_8257871209972085023gmail-m_82635259= 66453414718gmail-m_-6848716716840189008gmail-m_4461089805873319056ydp967b33= eeyiv0080460043yqt40229"><div class=3D"gmail-m_8257871209972085023gmail-m_8= 263525966453414718gmail-m_-6848716716840189008gmail-m_4461089805873319056yd= p967b33eeyiv0080460043ydp5bdea5c1yahoo_quoted" id=3D"gmail-m_82578712099720= 85023gmail-m_8263525966453414718gmail-m_-6848716716840189008gmail-m_4461089= 805873319056ydp967b33eeyiv0080460043ydp5bdea5c1yahoo_quoted_7737916445"> <div style=3D"font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,= Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(38,40,42)"> =20 <div> On Sunday, January 13, 2019, 9:41:15 PM CST, David Bell= ows <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">davebell= [email protected]</a>> wrote: </div> <div><br clear=3D"none"></div> <div><br clear=3D"none"></div> <div><div dir=3D"ltr">Hello all,<br clear=3D"none"></div><d= iv dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">I'm finishing = up a mesostic generating program that I'm using for a<br clear=3D"none"= ></div><div dir=3D"ltr">larger project. While researching for it, I came ac= ross a number of<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">claims about how = Cage generated them.<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"= none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">I get that the process evolved over time. But = what I'm most interested<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">is in= the software he used to generate mesostics.<br clear=3D"none"></div><div d= ir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">If I'm reading eve= rything correctly, it looks like Jim Rosenberg wrote<br clear=3D"none"></di= v><div dir=3D"ltr">the program MESOLIST for this purpose. I am having a dif= ficult time<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">finding details about = the program and hoping some people here can<br clear=3D"none"></div><div di= r=3D"ltr">help.<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"= ></div><div dir=3D"ltr">1. Is it available anywhere for downloading or stud= ying?<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><di= v dir=3D"ltr">2. Did the program generate the wing words?<br clear=3D"none"= ></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">3. Did th= e program follow only the 100% rule or allow for the 50% rule also?<br clea= r=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"= >4. I've read that Cage chose to leave out some wing words. Is this<br = clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">true for how he used the program or w= as that just something he did on<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">t= he mesostics he generated by hand?<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"= ><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">5. Right now my program chooses = up to seven words on either side of<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr= ">the spine word following the 100% rule for all the words. Next I will<br = clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">have it limit the number of words ran= domly but they will still be in<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">or= der (ie, anywhere from 0 to 7 of the preceding/following words). A<br clear= =3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">mesostic generator I see online<br clear= =3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">(<a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://vyh.pyth= onanywhere.com/psmeso/" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://vyh.pytho= nanywhere.com/psmeso/</a>) chooses randomly from all the<br clear=3D"none">= </div><div dir=3D"ltr">words between spine words following the 100% rule. M= y approach will<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">generate fragments= that make sense since it can potentially string up<br clear=3D"none"></div= ><div dir=3D"ltr">to 15 words in a row from the source text while the onlin= e one won't<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">do so. Which appro= ach more closely matches Rosenberg's program?<br clear=3D"none"></div><= div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">I'm really a = terrible programmer (I'm a composer and not a<br clear=3D"none"></div><= div dir=3D"ltr">programmer), so the fact that I've gotten this much wor= king probably<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">means I won't ch= ange how it works on a fundamental level but I would<br clear=3D"none"></di= v><div dir=3D"ltr">like to have an idea about how closely my approach match= es the<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">software Cage used.<br clea= r=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"= >Thanks everyone,<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Dave Bellows<br = clear=3D"none"></div></div> </div> </div></div></div></div></div> </div> </div></div></blockquote></div> </blockquote></div> </blockquote></div> --000000000000912987057f65e2fd--