Re: Discrete IP - retake
Pars Mutaf <[email protected]>
| Newsgroups | gmane.network.end2end |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CACQuieaHQpQT_tsp9Lzp0Thw42U5xRZ1xbhHDM4Yi+G8co=0PA@mail.gmail.com> |
I guess you forgot to include the list this time. Well by current practice cellular networks work well in case of disaster. See for example: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144 http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/ http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/business/29528908_1_cellphones-major-disasters-messages If you dot trust them, we can make the *existing* base stations more robust as you agreed. Connect them to satellite and add batteries and solar... Never rely on things like MANET, they may not work. ps: DTN, I did not question yet. On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Jon Crowcroft <[email protected]>wrote: > sorry, where's your funds to do your plan? you havn't answered one songle > objection to your idea at all and you just keep repeating your incorrect > views about disasters and about our networks. > > so you want a ballon+tech at every possible disaster area. > 1. how many do you need > 2. what is their cost > 3. how are you doing spectrum allocation > 4. how long do their power sources last > 5. what are your plans for maintenance > 6. how often are they deployed? > what if you get repeated disasters E.g. > hurricans happen repeatedly in the carribean) > 7. what are your sources of hydrogen (or helium) for the ballons > > > by the way, you said MANET again - > I said we modified this 12 years back or > more to do DTN - > please stop repeateing incorrect > ideas YOU have that I didnt say. > > you are confused. > > In missive <CACQuieZvvX+PS5p6rmPFNe6k8= > [email protected]>, Par > s Mutaf typed: > > >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b > >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >> > >>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft > >><[email protected]>wrote: > >> > >>> Ah - I see the source of confusion. > >>> > >>> You want to build a standby infrastructure > >>> > >>> There are lots of ways to do that - > >>> > >>> One is to build standby cell power > >>> (solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight > >>> or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected > >>> the way the generators at fukushima were) > >>> or have huge racks of batteries the way old > >>> phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF (fail > >>> defined as >50% of lines down) - > >>> Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar > >>> powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in fact... > >>> > >> > >>Cool. > >> > >> > >>> Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is > parallel in > >>> technology - as you've proposed....and go figure out how to get > either of > >>> those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business model > >>> > >>> However, its beside the point: > >>> The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster zone want > to > >>> make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny Mnemonic)... > >>> they don't. what they want is to find other people _nearby_ > >>> who have safe water, dry > >>> clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc - > >>> > >> > >>No I don't do this mistake. > >> > >>***The base station can serve for the calling the neighborhood too***. > >> > >>MANET looks like nothing but a research exercise to me. > >> > >>It is not needed as you admitted above. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> What people building DTNs > >>> (not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly) > >>> want to do is to provide _something_ for a > >>> self organising set of people to > >>> self organise opportunistic communication, > >>> UNTIL someone (else) comes along > >>> and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually > >>> (because coming along right away requires you to have > >>> massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 - > >>> go figure out how get that paid for). > >>> > >>> Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies present on mail lists > - > >>> > >>> One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error > >>> in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to > >>> discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that's obviously > >>> not the point any more. (lord knows what's left then, though). > >>> > >>> of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other, > >>> so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit > >>> while listening to 'Blood' playing > >>> Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher > >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9g6ZJjt9lg > >>> > >>> Its been, er, virtual... > >>> > >>> > >>> In missive <CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF= > >>> [email protected]>, Par > >>> s Mutaf typed: > >>> > >>> >>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8 > >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >> > >>> >>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea: > >>> >> > >>> >>1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise MANET will > only > >>> be > >>> >>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea what to do. I > would > >>> >>rather wait for real help instead of consuming my battery for > trying to > >>> get > >>> >>help from non-professional strangers. > >>> >> > >>> >>This means that users really have no incentive to consume energy > for > >>> others > >>> >>because they are waiting for real help. And this is what they > should do. > >>> >> > >>> >>You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your broken leg, > >>> request > >>> >>water from your non-professional neighbors or other things, but I > am not > >>> >>sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can provide? > >>> >> > >>> >>2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach anyone. Some > people > >>> >>suggested using long range wifi, but I don't have this in my > pocket. > >>> >> > >>> >>Therefore: > >>> >> > >>> >>The balloons should be installed as fast as possible. It will > broadcast > >>> an > >>> >>address which everyone can call for real help. > >>> >> > >>> >>This is really not a networking problem. It is about education. > >>> >> > >>> >>=== > >>> >> > >>> >>I am also not sure if the cellular network is not robust enough, > we may > >>> not > >>> >>even need a balloon: > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> > http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/ > >>> >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >>-- > >>http://www.content-based-science.org > >> > >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b > >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >> > >><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, > Jon Cr= > >>owcroft <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto: > [email protected]"= > >> target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>></span> > wrote:<br><blo= > >>ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 > .8ex;border-left:1px #c= > >>cc solid;padding-left:1ex"> > >>Ah - I see the source of confusion.<br> > >><br> > >>You want to build a standby infrastructure<br> > >><br> > >>There are lots of ways to do that -<br> > >><br> > >>One is to build standby cell power<br> > >>(solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight<br> > >>or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected<br> > >>the way the generators at fukushima were)<br> > >>or have huge racks of batteries the way old<br> > >>phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF (fail<br> > >>defined as >50% of lines down) -<br> > >>Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar<br> > >>powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in > fact...<br></blockq= > >>uote><div></div><div><br>Cool. <br>=A0</div><blockquote > class=3D"gmail_quot= > >>e" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid > rgb(204,204,204)= > >>;padding-left:1ex"> > >> > >>Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is > parallel in= > >><br> > >>technology - as you've proposed....and go figure out how to get > either = > >>of<br> > >>those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business model<br> > >><br> > >>However, its beside the point:<br> > >>The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster zone want > to<br= > >>> > >>make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny Mnemonic)...<br> > >>they don't. what they want is to find other people _nearby_<br> > >>who have safe water, dry<br> > >>clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc > -<br></blockquote><div><br>No = > >>I don't do this mistake. <br><br>***The base station can serve for > the = > >>calling the neighborhood too***. <br><br>MANET looks like nothing but a > res= > >>earch exercise to me. <br> > >><br>It is not needed as you admitted above. > <br><br><br>=A0</div><blockquot= > >>e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt > 0.8ex;border-left:1px s= > >>olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >> > >>What people building DTNs<br> > >>(not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)<br> > >>want to do is to provide _something_ for a<br> > >>self organising set of people to<br> > >>self organise opportunistic communication,<br> > >>UNTIL someone (else) comes along<br> > >>and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually<br> > >>(because coming along right away requires you to have<br> > >>massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -<br> > >>go figure out how get that paid for).<br> > >><br> > >>Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies present on mail > lists -= > >><br> > >><br> > >>One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error<br> > >>in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to<br> > >>discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that's > obviously<br= > >>> > >>not the point any more. (lord knows what's left then, though).<br> > >><br> > >>of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other,<br> > >>so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit<br> > >>while listening to 'Blood' playing<br> > >>Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher<br> > >><a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg" > target=3D"_blank">= > >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg</a><br> > >><br> > >>Its been, er, virtual...<br> > >><br> > >><br> > >>In missive <CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D<a href=3D"mailto: > yf18msEv0dg-= > >>[email protected]">[email protected] > </a>>,= > >> Par<br> > >>s Mutaf typed:<br> > >><br> > >>=A0>>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8<br> > >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br> > >><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">=A0>><br> > >>=A0>>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:<br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>>1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise > MANET wi= > >>ll only be<br> > >>=A0>>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea what to > do. I= > >> would<br> > >>=A0>>rather wait for real help instead of consuming my battery > for tr= > >>ying to get<br> > >>=A0>>help from non-professional strangers.<br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>>This means that users really have no incentive to consume > energy= > >> for others<br> > >>=A0>>because they are waiting for real help. And this is what > they sh= > >>ould do.<br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>>You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your > broken le= > >>g, request<br> > >>=A0>>water from your non-professional neighbors or other things, > but = > >>I am not<br> > >>=A0>>sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can > provide?<br= > >>> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>>2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach anyone. > Some = > >>people<br> > >>=A0>>suggested using long range wifi, but I don't have this > in my= > >> pocket.<br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>>Therefore:<br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>>The balloons should be installed as fast as possible. It > will br= > >>oadcast an<br> > >>=A0>>address which everyone can call for real help.<br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>>This is really not a networking problem. It is about > education.<= > >>br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>>=3D=3D=3D<br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>>I am also not sure if the cellular network is not robust > enough,= > >> we may not<br> > >>=A0>>even need a balloon:<br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>><a href=3D" > http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo= > >>g/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/" > target=3D= > >>"_blank"> > http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones= > >>-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><br> > >> > >>=A0>><br> > >></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a > href=3D"= > >>http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.content-= > >>based-science.org</a><br><br> > >> > >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b-- > > cheers > > jon > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org