Re: TCP "experiments"

if someone is just making the sender side send faster no matter what the circumstance
then you'd be right - but a lot of TCP changes make it more _efficient_ which benefits
everyone - for example TCP Fast Open means less packets on the net, which is a 
win-win scenario (lower latency for this user, less in the queues for other users)...

so a lot of the things people at google and other places are trying to do
are universally beneficial imho.....why would they not be?

In missive <[email protected]>, Marco Mellia typed:

 >>Jon,
 >>
 >>I think no one is saying that big companies are doing dumb things. It's =
 >>just that the Internet is a really shared infrastructure.
 >>Unless resources are infinite (which may be actually the case for Google =
 >>:)), gaining something somewhere comes at the expenses of loosing =
 >>something else somewhere else.
 >>
 >>Considering TCP, it is easy to show that "I can gain". It is much harder =
 >>to show "who else is loosing".
 >>And weighting the plus and the minus is even more complicated.
 >>
 >>M
 >>
 >>
 >>--=20
 >>Marco Mellia - Assistant Professor
 >>Dipartimento di Elettronica e Telecomunicazioni
 >>Politecnico di Torino
 >>Corso Duca Degli Abruzzi 24
 >>10129 - Torino - IT
 >>Tel: +39-011-090-4173
 >>Cel: +39-331-6714789
 >>Skype: mgmellia
 >>Home page: http://www.tlc-networks.polito.it/mellia
 >>
 >>On Jul 30, 2013, at 1:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft <[email protected]> =
 >>wrote:
 >>
 >>> the nice thing about a lot of the big cloud/web service outfits=20
 >>> is that they run a huge _range_ of applications so a point solution=20
 >>> tcp optimised for just one thing that=20
 >>> harmed the common case uses of TCP would be ruled out -=20
 >>>=20
 >>> if you think about the mix of map/reduce,=20
 >>> video streaming, social net, searches, gmail, gfs, google docs, etc =
 >>etc=20
 >>> (and similar mixes for microsoft bing + hotmail + azure etc;=20
 >>> and similar for apple iCloud, appstore, and similar for,
 >>> oh, i dunno, maybe even facebook),=20
 >>> then I doubt very much we'd see them do something
 >>> as narrowly dumb as people seem to imply here=20
 >>> (or deploy someone else's dumb narrow hack either)....
 >>>=20
 >>> as for impact between different cloud/web service providers
 >>> (e.g. google being smart enough to optimise a TCP hack for all that =
 >>stuff
 >>> but still harm Amazon's traffic for book/cd buying, EC2, cloud music =
 >>player
 >>> etc etc, that would be incredibly ingeneiously dumb,=20
 >>> but also unlikely, since a major google's revenue depends on=20
 >>> people finding stuff on _other servers,=20
 >>> and finding those other services useful,=20
 >>> so it would be kind of silly to auction advert space to the highest =
 >>bidder=20
 >>> iand deliver those adverts in a way that broke the advertised =
 >>things....
 >>>=20
 >>> [I suppose you could deliver adverts that broke TCP services to
 >>> servers that hadn't paid you to advertise them - that'd be pretty
 >>> super duper whacky type of cyberwarfare game some folks at the NSA
 >>> probably have fun thinking up.....
 >>>=20
 >>> maybe Huawei could deploy some DPI-based filter to harm succesful =
 >>businesses only
 >>> so as to bring down the whole capitalist imperialist western =
 >>civilisation....oh no,
 >>> wait, they need our net to work so they can sell us their routers...
 >>>=20
 >>> In missive <[email protected]>, Joe Touch =
 >>typed:
 >>>=20
 >>>>>=20
 >>>>>=20
 >>>>> On Jul 29, 2013, at 11:14 PM, Jon Crowcroft =
 >><[email protected]> wro=3D
 >>>>> te:
 >>>>>=20
 >>>>>> google have extremely good instrumentation -
 >>>>>=20
 >>>>> They can now see how my PC talks to amazon.com now?
 >>>>>=20
 >>>>>> their shareholders would get upset if they deployed things that =
 >>broke
 >>>>>> the world badly -
 >>>>>=20
 >>>>> Even if they made Google 0.01% faster? And increased ad revenue as a =
 >>result?=3D
 >>>>> And stock value or dividends?
 >>>>>=20
 >>>>>> that's the NSA's job.
 >>>>>=20
 >>>>> Sound like you're referring to my first point above :-)
 >>>>>=20
 >>>>> Joe=3D20
 >>>>>=20
 >>>=20
 >>> cheers
 >>>=20
 >>>   jon
 >>>=20
 >>

 cheers

   jon