Re: Freenet 0,5 or 0,7

* [email protected] <[email protected]> [2006-08-28 11:13:24]:

> On 8/28/06, NextGen$ <[email protected]> wrote:
> >* - <[email protected]> [2006-08-27 19:45:27]:
> >
> >> I'd like to add to the 0.5 vs 0.7 discussion in the support list, which 
> >we
> >> were
> >> asked to move here, so I hope the people from support are reading this!
> >
> >Trolls don't need to be on @support, that's for sure :)
> >
> 
> It's a good way to be noticed :)
> 
> >> Regarding the social networks, the models that exist probably apply to
> >> national
> >> systems only, and probably to a certain social class within that, so I'm 
> >not
> >> convinced that they would have any meaning for an underground internet
> >> network.
> >> I.E. how would a darknet of chinese dissidents link up with freedom 
> >fighters
> >> in an oppressive latin american regime? And how would any of these link
> >> up with a darknet of german kids wishing to download warez or whatever?
> >>
> >> But here's the big question: what mechanism can freenet have, for 
> >protecting
> >> members of a darknet, when a darknet is infiltrated by a hostile node?
> >> When I talked about infiltrating the darknet, I did not mean breaking it
> >> from the
> >> outside with some super computers, (which I'm sure is harder to do with 
> >0,7
> >> than
> >> with 0,5), I simply meant posing as an "inside person" and joining it, or
> >> simply
> >> busting one member and capturing his computer.
> >
> >see below :)
> >
> >> Toad (I believe) replied to this saying that I might as well hang myself 
> >if
> >> I think
> >> that there's noone I can trust in life. But come on, that's not the 
> >point,
> >> everyone knows
> >> that spies take on false identities and infiltrate every kind of illegal
> >> network.
> >> That's what they get paid for.
> >
> >How do you explain that all terrorist cells haven't been busted so ?
> >
> 
> Um...they're small groups of people that know and trust each other
> really well. And they're isolated. That'd be like having a few hundred
> 50-100 person darknets with no communication between them and people
> only invite the people they've known for many, many years.

You shouldn't connect to people you don't trust, full stop.

> >> Also, it just isn't realistic to think that people will know others in 
> >real
> >> life that they
> >> can trust with the kind of things they need anonymity for. A minority
> >> of people will have such connections, but the majority will not! This 
> >will
> >> mean that
> >> for freenet to be viable it will always need to have a public mechanism 
> >for
> >> joining.
> >
> >That's debatable... Gmail hadn't and has been successfull.
> >
> 
> How the hell can you even CONSIDER comparing Gmail to freenet?
> Gmail isn't anonymous.

Gmail is an invite-only system as freenet

> If I invite a government agent to Gmail, that's not gonna screw me over.

It won't on freenet either... It might.

> I don't have to send a file to someone to get them to join Gmail.

You've to send them a mail, wich is kinda the same thing.

> There's no security risk with just sending Gmail invites to random people.

If the fact of running freenet is illegal in your country opennet won't help
at all ;)

> Nothing anyone does on Gmail is illegal. At least not if they're smart.

Nothing anyone does on freenet is illegal. At least not if they're smart.

> Gmail and Freenet...that's like comparing my computer to a lego block.

I don't get the metaphor :$

> >> So, again the question is:
> >> What mechanism will 0,7 have for protecting members of the darknet if
> >> one of the nodes is spy? I think this issue seriously needs to be solved!
> >>
> >
> >It's the purpose of "premix-routing" : protecting the "first few hops". 
> >Might
> >be implemented in freenet 0.8.
> >
> 
> MIGHT be implemented in 0.8? 0.8 is most likely about two years away.
> What do we do until then? Pray?

Connect only to trusted friends... On darknet you choose your friends, on
opennet we choose them for you! Meaning that opennet WILL be even less secure
than the current darknet ;)

> >Keep in mind that the "known attacks" agaisnt freenet are only
> >probablilistic ones ... "It's likely that your have inserted/downloaded 
> >that
> >key" : it's always a matter of plausible deniability.
> >
> >> Are "the bad guys" really going to spend millions on high tech
> >> computers to break a network, when all they have to do is join it? 
> >Thinking
> >> we can keep them out is absurd! Any current member of 0,7 could just as 
> >well
> >> be or become a spy or a narc or whatever.
> >>
> >
> >You seems to missunderstand the point : you should wonder why would 
> >opennet be
> >more secure... and will see that it's not.
> >
> 
> I wonder why a darknet is more secure...and see that it's not.

Can't you read what I'm writting ? :)

> 
> >On opennet a governement is likely to be able to compromize the "seednode"
> >file and replace it with only governement powered nodes. On darknet it's 
> >not
> >doable. Social engeenering is always more costy than technical/automatable
> >processes. Moreover a government doesn't need to infiltrate such a network 
> >;
> >shuting it down is often enough... And any opennet network is harvestable,
> >meaning that it can be trivially attacked blacklisting on country's 
> >firewall
> >the list of IP addresses known to be running freenet.
> >
> >On darknet we ask people to choose who they trust, on opennet we choose for
> >them trying to optimize the network topology.
> >
> >NextGen$
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