Re: [core-dev] New 4.2.4 test results (More testsconfirm(re:Bandw idth Balanced Swarms?))

I was going to test with Apache Tomcat, as it's Java-based and might be a more fair comparison since I can run it off the same JVM as I'm already running Limewire on... but I won't wager on the issue being either download or upload being... to tricky to figure it out! :)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Fisk"
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [core-dev] New 4.2.4 test results (More testsconfirm(re:Bandwidth Balanced Swarms?))
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 17:16:56 -0500

>
> If you have anything running Apache or some other standard server,
> it might be interesting to try downloading from them. That would
> isolate the problem on the download or upload side. I'd place a
> strong bet on the download side, but who knows?
>
> -Adam
>
>
> Brian Fall wrote:
>
> > Hi Greg, the system that's getting the download (the client that
> > attaches to two sources) has a lot of extra bandwidth to spare
> > during the downloads as only about 1/4th of the system's
> > available download bandwidth is consumed during the tests (that
> > is, it has a lot of free bandwidth available so that's not a
> > problem). Brian
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Greg Bildson"
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: RE: [core-dev] New 4.2.4 test results (More
> > testsconfirm(re:Bandwidth Balanced Swarms?))
> > Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 16:56:05 -0500
> >
> > Brian,
> > I assume that you are not maxing out the download speed of the
> > download machine right?
> > Thanks
> > -greg
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > *From:* [email protected]
> > [mailto:[email protected]]*On Behalf Of *Brian Fall
> > *Sent:* Thursday, December 02, 2004 4:12 PM
> > *To:* [email protected]
> > *Subject:* Re: [core-dev] New 4.2.4 test results (More tests
> > confirm(re:Bandwidth Balanced Swarms?))
> >
> > The servers are just running Limewire (I'm the only one with
> > access to them so they're not being used by anyone except for me
> > during the tests). I thought that I might compare the Limewire
> > drop-off with another p2p tool, and tried to use Shareazaa for
> > that to see if it also dropped off, but it turns out that
> > Shareazaa doesn't let me specify the hosts to download from as I
> > can with Limewire. If you know of any other p2p software that I
> > can use to run some comparison tests let me know and I'll give
> > them a run. Brian (btw, thanks for 4.2.4 :)
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Sam Berlin"
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: [core-dev] New 4.2.4 test results (More tests confirm
> > (re:Bandwidth Balanced Swarms?))
> > Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 16:00:26 -0500
> >
> > >
> > > Thanks for keeping us up to date on this, Brian. We haven't yet
> > > had a chance to try replicating the behavior (stabilizing the
> > > releases and all -- 4.2.4 had some rather nasty bug-fixes in it).
> > > We'll see if we can reproduce it though. Offhand, I don't know
> > > what would cause such consistent slowdowns as you're seeing.
> > > There's obviously something going on if it happens every time, but
> > > we haven't noticed any particular slowdowns. Are the servers
> > > you're using running LimeWire, or generic HTTP servers (such as
> > > Apache)?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Sam
> > >
> > > On Dec 2, 2004, at 3:56 PM, Brian Fall wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Sam, I have just run the same tests using Limewire 4.2.4 with
> > > > a fresh install on each system; I un-installed the previous 4.2.3
> > > > version, deleted the .limewire folder, and installed 4.2.4. I
> > > > then downloaded individually from each of my servers, and got
> > > > nearly full speed from each when they were the only source (that
> > > > is, for each server I tested how fast it could download by itself
> > > > before trying them both as sources at the same time). When I
> > > > downloaded from both, however, the overall speed on each dropped
> > > > by about 1/2 as reported in my previous tests. As a result,
> > > > downloading from two sources was no faster than downloading from
> > > > a single source since the single source downloads run at full
> > > > speed whereas the multi-source drops off in speed by about half
> > > > for each new source added. I don't know if it matters at all, but
> > > > for all of these tests I've been using magnet links and the "as"
> > > > (alternate source) in particular so that I can specify two
> > > > different sources fir the download.
> > > >
> > > > Are you able to replicate these tests to see if we're actually
> > > > seeing the same basic behavior?
> > > >
> > > > I'm happy to help with other tests if you'd like me to do that,
> > > > and can try to help with code (but not sure where/what to look
> > > > at!). Hope the current tests shed some light on the problem...
> > > > Brian
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Brian Fall"
> > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > Subject: Re: [core-dev] More tests confirm (re: Bandwidth
> > Balanced Swarms?)
> > > > Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:49:55 -0500
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > It sounds like a race condition, Sam, since on all the
> > computers
> > > > > that I've been testing on Limewire 4.2.3 has been set to
> > full speed
> > > > > (no throttle -- the slider is set to allow unlimited
> > bandwidth as
> > > > > you suggest). For a while I thought that it was actually
> > balancing
> > > > > the load between nodes intentionally since it was so
> > consistant,
> > > > > dropping of more and more with each new source being found,
> > but it
> > > > > sounds like there must be another issue if that's not coded
> > into
> > > > > Limewire intentionally. I'm happy to help out with more
> > testing and
> > > > > some coding as well... Brian
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Sam Berlin"
> > > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > > Subject: Re: [core-dev] More tests confirm (re: Bandwidth
> > > > Balanced Swarms?)
> > > > > Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:14:05 -0500
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Brian,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is very interesting ... the slowdown is more or less
> > a race
> > > > > > condition in the code and something that should appear only
> > > > > > occasionally. This is very odd that you're seeing it all the
> > > > > > time. LimeWire, by default, does not throttle downloads.
> > > > > > However, you may have added some throttling by changing your
> > > > > > options (Options -> Downloads, "Download Bandwidth"). If that
> > > > > > slider is set to unlimited, no throttling will take place
> > -- if
> > > > > > it's anything less, there may be some throttling. Can you
> > check
> > > > > > to make sure the downloads aren't being throttled? If they're
> > > > > > not, we'll definitely have to investigate into this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Sam
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Nov 29, 2004, at 9:59 AM, Brian Fall wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi guys, before trying to address this problem I wanted
> > to test
> > > > > > a > little more to ensure that it was actually an issue
> > (and not
> > > > > > just a > temporary problem) and can now confirm the
> > problem with
> > > > > > more detail. > To test I use Limewire Pro 4.2.3 on a
> > laptop that
> > > > > > connected to two of > my own servers that both ran
> > Limewire as
> > > > > > well. I used a movie that > only I have (so that no other
> > peers
> > > > > > on the network would be found; > just mine for which I could
> > > > > > monitor the upload speed) and ran the > tests again, and the
> > > > > > results are the same: when downloading from just > one server
> > > > > > Limewire would download at nearly full speed (not 100% of
> > > the
> > > > > > servers available bandwidth, more like 80% or so but that's
> > > > > > fine). > But when I would place the same file on the other
> > server
> > > > > > and re-try it > would download at about 50% of the available
> > > > > > download speed for each > server -- in fact, downloading
> > from two
> > > > > > servers wasn't much faster (if > at all) than downloading
> > from a
> > > > > > single server because of the drop-off > in download speed
> > once mo!
> > > > > > > re than 1 source was used. When I tried the same tests
> > with a
> > > > > > file > that IS available on the larger Gnutella network
> > things
> > > > > > got much worse > -- for every new source that my laptop
> > client
> > > > > > found I saw a > substantial decrease in download speed
> > from my
> > > > > > severs (that is, as > each source was found my own servers
> > > > > > dropped off in speed). By the > time I had a handful of
> > sources
> > > > > > for the file my own servers had > dropped off to about 5% of
> > > > > > their available bandwidth.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This is such a clean drop-off in download speed (almost
> > by half
> > > > > > each > time a new source is added) it makes me think that
> > > > > > Limewire does this > intentionally, although you mentioned
> > that
> > > > > > it might just be code in > need of an update Sam. I've
> > started to
> > > > > > read the downloading source > files, but they're pretty
> > hairy and
> > > > > > the changes I've made so far don't > make any impact. I was
> > > > > > thinking now of working on the bandwidth > methods, but don't
> > > > > > know if that's the right area to focus on for this. > If
> > you have
> > > > > > any suggestions of what source files and where in them to >
> > > > > > revise I'll do that, as any direction you can give me
> > would be a
> > > > > > great > help (right now it's just trial and error, mostly
> > error,
> > > > > > and I fear > that I'm heading in the wrong direction with
> > regard
> > > > > > to fixing the > problem).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Brian
> > > > > > > ---
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I see -- thanks, Sam. I thought that it might be a feature
> > > > > > (makes > sense in some ways to balance the node on a
> > public p2p
> > > > > > network so that > no one node is overtaxed) and wondered
> > if it
> > > > > > would be simple enough to > specify which nodes or IP ranges
> > > > > > should download full speed while > leaving the default
> > behavior
> > > > > > (balancing) as-is for other nodes. I'll > continue to poke
> > around
> > > > > > and see if there's a simple way to do that, > and would be
> > happy
> > > > > > to follow your lead if you have ideas on where in > the
> > code to
> > > > > > do that... do you think, for example, that making the >
> > download
> > > > > > chunk size larger would help at all (just an idea; if the >
> > > > > > download chunks are large, coming from my own servers, maybe
> > > > > > there > won't be enough time for load to be balanced as other
> > > > > > sources are > found... but maybe not, come to think of it,
> > since
> > > > > > the download speed > from my servers tapers off as soon as an
> > > > > > other source is found so as i > think it through while typing
> > > > > > this my guess is that a larger chunk > size won't
> > help....hmmmm!)
> > > > > > Brian
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Sam Berlin"
> > > > > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > > > > Subject: RE: [core-dev] Bandwidth Balanced Swarms?
> > > > > > > Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 17:01:39 -0500
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Brian,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I suspect this is a limitation of the way LimeWire
> > synchronizes
> > > > > > its > data-structures related to which parts of the file have
> > > > > > been > downloaded. If a server is very slow sending a
> > response
> > > > > > to a single > request, that request will hold up all other
> > > > > > connections from > requesting a new chunk. The downloading
> > code
> > > > > > is long overdue for some > re-architecting, to remove these
> > > > > > limitations and simplify the class in > general.
> > Unfortunately,
> > > > > > I don’t believe this limitation can be > removed without some
> > > > > > serious changes to ManagedDownloader and the way >
> > downloading is
> > > > > > general is designed.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sam
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: [email protected] >
> > > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
> > Brian
> > > > > > Fall
> > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 4:52 PM
> > > > > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > > > > Subject: [core-dev] Bandwidth Balanced Swarms?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hello again -- I posted this to the forums, thinking it was
> > > > > > more along > the lines of a question the end user
> > community could
> > > > > > help with, but > since I'll want to have full speed from
> > my own
> > > > > > nodes I thought I'd > repost here in hopes that I can be
> > pointed
> > > > > > in the right direction. > Curently I'm looking in
> > > > > > ManangedDownloader and HTTPDownloader to relax > this
> > balancing,
> > > > > > if possible. Is that the right place to look? Regards, >
> > Brian
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hello... I can't be certain, but for me (Limewire Pro
> > 4.2.3) it
> > > > > > looks > like Limewire is balancing bandwidth between the
> > various
> > > > > > sources when > swarming a download. I have tested this
> > with my
> > > > > > own server, which > drops in upload speed (to the test
> > client)
> > > > > > shortly after the client > finds more sources -- my client
> > starts
> > > > > > off downloading at full speed > from my server initially,
> > since
> > > > > > its the first source it finds, but > then the upload speed
> > > > > > dramatically tapers off once the client finds > other
> > sources.
> > > > > > For example, with only my server as the source the > transfer
> > > > > > rate is about 100KB, but that drops down to about 5KB once
> > > the
> > > > > > client finds other sources.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Is this how Limewire was designed? I ask because I
> > wanted to
> > > > > > use my > own server as the main source (fastest
> > downloads), with
> > > > > > only minor > amounts being downloaded from the larger
> > Gnutella
> > > > > > network. But no > matter what I try I can't seem to keep a
> > full
> > > > > > speed download going > from my server once other sources are
> > > > > > available to the client.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Is there a way to do that?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > With thanks for any insight into the Limewire design you
> > can offer!
> > > > > > > Brian
> > > > > > > -- >
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