Ramsey Clark On Haiti: "A Clear Demonstration of U.S. Regime Change By Armed Aggression"

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/03/02/1616208

We speak with former Attorney General Ramsey Clark Clark about the overthrow
of the democratically-elected President Jean Bertrand Aristide. During the
1991 coup, Clark traveled to Haiti several times in an effort to restore him
to power.

AMY GOODMAN: President Aristide says he was kidnapped, that he was forced out
of Haiti in a U.S.-backed coup d'etat at that time, as he put it. We're joined
on the telephone right now by Ramsey Clark, the former U.S. Attorney General.
He might have been able to join us in the studio, but had -- was hit by a car
this weekend and broke his foot, ankle, and nose. We're sorry about what's
happened to you, Ramsey Clark. How are you doing?

RAMSEY CLARK: I'm doing fine. Never looked better. Nose out of place, and
stitches.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, you sound good, at least. I don't know how much you have
been able to pay attention to the world outside of yours right now, but if you
could respond to what has happened to Jean-Bertrand Aristide in the last few days.

RAMSEY CLARK: Well, I have been able to keep up. I was on the phone nearly all
day yesterday from home talking to many people about it, John Conyers and
Randall Robinson and others. Sometimes you get embedded in details, and if you
back off and look at it, this is as clear a demonstration of U.S. regime
change, and by armed aggression, as you'll find. Have you heard President Bush
or Colin Powell say a good thing about President Aristide? Have you heard them
say repeatedly recently, he ought to leave, and earlier, that he ought to hold
new elections? Is there a better-known enemy of Aristide than Roger Noriega?
You see how puffed up he was when he walked into that meeting? Why did they
cut off humanitarian aid to the poorest country in the hemisphere when they
knew how desperate people were getting? Why'd they maintain an embargo? How do
you think, you know, the same elements, the old military frap, gangs, got into
Haiti with m-16's and m-60's from the Dominican Republic, with which President
Bush personally has a close relationship and presence there, except the United
States? Why did we tell Aristide, after they got in, that he should leave? Did
we ever tell these gunman who were killing people -- half of the casualties
that were counted were police officers. Imagine that. People coming in and
shooting up the police in the United States.

AMY GOODMAN: We're talking to former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark,
talking about who is now, if you could call it, "in control" of Haiti. Go
ahead, Ramsey Clark. Ramsey Clark, joining us on the phone. You were saying -
sorry. We're talking to Ramsey Clark, who is the former U.S. Attorney General,
talking about the situation. It is important to point out Guy Philippe has
come into Port-au-Prince, the former Cap Haitian Police Chief as well.
Yesterday Jodel Chamblain, in the capital of Haiti. Jodel Chamblain, who was
convicted in absentia of the killing of the former Justice Minister, Guy
Mallory, during the coup of 1991 to 1994, among other crimes. Go ahead, Ramsey
Clark.

RAMSEY CLARK: You know, you can't say that Powell is lying, because Powell
isn't informed of the facts. He wasn't there. But he's misstating facts and
he's misstating intentions. If he would honestly face the truth, the United
States acted in every way to get Aristide out. As we used to say in organized
crime, he made him an offer he couldn't refuse. If that's not coercing and
kidnapping, if that's not - it was really by armed aggression, which is the
supreme international crime, because we have these gangs with guns, our guns,
come in, against police with sidearms and .38 caliber pistols and things, and
shoot them up and threaten the President and thousands of other people in
Haiti. It was typical. So, for the regime change, what do we get? We get the
old regime. You have got the aristocracy that supported Duvalier during 30
years. And the idea that we're going to make a beautiful democracy there and
help them economically, how well did they fare during the period from 1915 to
1934 when we occupied the place? What happened after our military occupation
in 1994, after we had held Aristide - I have always said he was kidnapped then
- for three years of his Presidency here in the United States and sent him
back for one year, under the promise that he would not seek to amend the law
so he could run again for the next term? Of course it was regime change. It
was to go back to the old days, to [ ] and that crowd, literally. They're kind
of creaky now, but they're still around. They're FRAPH. We know what kind of
characters they are. It will be interesting to see whether Constant, who was
given refuge here all of these years, will go back down anytime soon. It's a
coup d'etat and regime change by the United States. It's another intervention
in the western hemisphere. It's one of the most shameful of all and it's one
of a patchwork of lies to deceive the American people into thinking that this
President, who had said time and time again he would not leave, who had said
he was not afraid to die, he would give his life, and I believe him, and he
was serving a constitutional government, and he was democratically elected. If
you go back to the election in 1990, we did everything that we could to
prevent him from being elected. We financed a man named Mark Bazan, who we
knew and liked, and who was from Haiti and spent a little time there actually,
but a lot more time here and at the world bank and places like that. We gave
him millions to run against Aristide. Aristide got 67% of the vote. Bazan got
14% of the vote. You know who the first Prime Minister was after Aristide was
forced to leave? Mark Bazan. Our man. We put him in right after the military
coup that forced him to leave. And how did Baby Doc leave, when he left? He
left in a U.S. Air Force plane. He had a fortune of wealth from the sweat of
slave labor's brow in Haiti, and he was taken to the Riveria where he has
lived happily ever after. When the coup against Aristide happened in September
of 1981, the U.S. didn't lend a hand. He would have been killed right there if
the French Ambassador and the President of Venezuela had not sent a plane. The
Ambassador of France provided the wheels and got him out of the palace, and
President of Venezuela provided the plane that got him out. These people have
wanted to overthrow this government for a long time. It's interesting that it
wouldn't have happened if Aristide had not abolished the army. I happen to
favor abolishing armies. I think we need to cut our military expenditures by
75% at least, and until we do, there's a dynamic there that makes it
impossible for us not to be a militaristic nation that's causing trouble all
over the world and trying to dominate people all over the world.

AMY GOODMAN: Why does the U.S. want Haiti to have an army?

RAMSEY CLARK: Part of it is ideological. For a guy like Noriega it's
ideological. He doesn't want - you know, remember when we went into Grenada,
we sent 9,000 troops and shot the place up, killed more Grenadians in a few
days than the U.S. lost on all fronts in World War II. Ronald Reagan said
we're going to roll back communism. The dominoes are going to fall the other
way. Why did we break up Yugoslavia? Because it was a socialist government
that was strong. It was economically progressive. It was going to come through
the collapse of the eastern bloc, and we didn't want that to happen. We don't
want liberation theologies because both some religions and liberations
threaten us. Particularly when you see what's happening all over Latin
America. You've got Lula, you've got Chavez, you've got Gutierrez, and so on
who want to serve their own people and not U.S. interests. You have to get
every stumbling block out. We just have to see if we can protect Cuba and
Venezuela, and Ecuador, and Peru again and Brazil from - and, perhaps, the way
things are going, Argentina, from new U.S. interventions. I think a major
principle that the people of the United States must insist upon is no more
U.S. interventions.

AMY GOODMAN: On that note, former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark, thank
you for being with us, and I hope you heal quickly.

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