Re: Re: Outsourcing: (was: Russell / Capital Destroying Jobs / Mar 04

Aaron:
	wtf? You're doing a shitload of ranting without positing a central 
argument, (or organizing your thoughts, for that matter.)  What do you 
think should be done about this recent offshoring phenomenon?

	I've tried to answer some of your questions below.


On Mar 5, 2004, at 3:31 PM, Aaron S. Hawley wrote:

> On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Nicholas Bonfatti wrote:
>
>>   What's interesting about SWANH is that they represent businesses and
>> individual developers, both sides of the spectrum.
>
> just because a few token developers show up?
>

No, they really do.  I don't know how you got the idea that they have 
merely a few token developers show up, have you ever been to a SWANH 
meeting?

Here's the website, I should have included it before: 
http://www.swanh.org

>> When you think about it, outsourcing is inevitable, there is no reason
>> IT jobs should be any more secure than manufacturing jobs.
>
> given neoliberal globalization, then obviously yes it is invetiable. i
> don't disagree, i just avoid tautologies.

>> Furthermore, what's to stop foreign software companies from competing
>> with American software companies?
>
> don't you catch the irony that the example here, Oracle, owns the 
> "foreign
> software companies"?  so are they really "foreign".  or did a u.s.
> multinational just take its business to a country with IT workers 
> willing
> to earn the most corporate-attractive (read: lowest) wages.
>

I'm referring to non-US-owned companies here. Clearly with such a smart 
(and cheap) population, there is little to stop Indian companies from 
cleaning up in the American market. Oh, except for one thing - the US 
is way better at coming up with new ideas (read: innovation) than 
India.

>> What needs to be done to maintain our economic superiority is to 
>> create
>> centers of excellence, such as those in India around IIT campuses. The
>> governments of India and China have taken education very seriously, 
>> and
>> it is showing.
>
> Wait, isn't this the case already: that the US has "centers of
> excellence"?  Isn't that why we have a variety of international 
> students?
> And it seems there's no shortage of perfectly capable IT professionals 
> out
> there.  If there wasn't, then companies wouldn't be able to pick up and
> move business into another state or hemishpere.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here, are H1-Bs the 
international students you are referring to?

>> The US government needs to spur innovation, not implement 
>> protectionist
>> policies.
>
> This is probably true.  The reactionary protectionism that's gripping
> everyone is probably a bad response.  Nationalist shit like "Buy Made 
> in
> America" sucked.  But is the US Government looking out for the best in 
> the
> interest's of IT (and other industry) workers (here and abroad) or even
> innovation?  I say they fail on both accounts.  Innovation will come 
> when
> decent education and jobs are available.
>
> But shit, I don't want to work for Oracle or IBM, anyway.  so
> outsource/offshore them wherever.  unfortunately, even if i believed 
> the
> rush of jobs to India or wherever was a healthy thing, I'd demand they 
> be
> foreign jobs and not the jobs of U.S. multinationals helped by "free
> trade".

> My guess is that IT worker's need to play catch up.  A lot of
> manufacturing worker's figured out the lessons when jobs go abroad, 
> that
> being the hard way.  when will we figure it out?  hopefully, not too 
> late.
> this liberal shit about better education and innovation is a no 
> brainer.
> what's the real fucking problem?


Um... the problem is offshoring, I think.
I realize you're mostly just ranting by this point in your message, 
could you maybe read through what you wrote again and try to explain 
your thoughts?

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