Re: RE: mixmasters Digest, Vol 31, Issue 8

Good points. We did consider the location for the water heater. I  
don't think it's in the best spot, personally. I'll let the engineers  
address the concerns in more detail, but here is what I gleaned from  
working with Felix (engineer) and Ron (a plumber) and also there was  
another guy, Greg (the astronomer), who has done a laboratory  
distillation of methanol.

1) Convection
To address the problem with sluggish convection caused by heavily  
viscous glycerin by-product, we mixed 5 gallons of glycerin with 5  
gallons of water. Judging by how quickly the mixture heated up to 200  
degrees, I feel certain that we are getting a good convection inside  
the tank. Felix can comment on this.

2) Location
A better spot for the tank would be out in the back of the lot. We  
placed it on the concrete near the house to have access to the hose.  
I don't think this is the optimal location. However, in the  
likelyhood of an explosion, I believe that what we might see is the  
actual cooling copper coil unit being launched into the air like a  
rocket. Again, the more engineery types can comment on this. We might  
want to attach a loose chain tether to the coil. I know this sounds  
silly, but who knows how far that coil could go?

3) Testing with Water first
We inadvertently stress-tested the system to 200 degrees. All we got  
was a little water distilled and a leaky braze seam. There is a  
relief valve on the water heater which was opening to allow steam to  
escape. I don't see the use of starting over with pure water. I don't  
think it will tell us anything. Other's thoughts?

4) Other tank concerns
Seth had mentioned trying to distill water first. We've inadvertently  
done this. Someone also mentioned something about having the tank  
half full, in case methanol fumes mix with air. I think someone might  
address this. We could always "top off" the tank with water (or  
glycerin). There was some question about what would happen if the  
heating element shorted and sparked in the presence of air/methanol  
fumes. Can someone address this?

5) Water flow to the cooling tower
I noticed that without turing the hose on full blast, it seemed to be  
turning itself off at the spigot. So I kept having to open it back up  
again. This is a real problem and a real annoyance. I am not sure  
what happens to the system if there is no water cooling the tower. My  
best guess would be that methanol fumes would get pushed out the  
distillation tubing. Can someone perhaps answer this question?

In summary, I think are main safety actions should be:

1) Get a working thermostat on the water heater so we can control how  
hot the liquids inside get.
2) We need to be thinking about a way to recirculate water in the  
cooling unit. Water running from the hose is something additional to  
have to monitor, which makes me a little nervous.
3) Relocate the water heater on a stable surface (concrete anyone?)  
near the back of the lot, which might mean buying an additional hose  
length. I need to check the hose length.
4) Perhaps most important, one reason why we let it get so hot was  
because we got involved with other activities (guests appearing,  
moving concrete, etc). This was very bad on our part. We had no idea  
that the mixture would heat up so quickly. So we need to write on the  
methanol still water heater tank for now "Do not operate unattended"  
until we are sure we can control the reaction.

Anyway, I hope this addresses some of your concerns, Karen. I am  
anxious to keep moving forward with the methanol removal, but I will  
do whatever seems necessary to be safe.


On Sep 25, 2006, at 12:27 AM, karen kruse wrote:

> Zac and Felix, and others interested in the distillation.
>
>  Hi. thanks for including the mixmasters in the update.
>  I hope the trial run with water went well this weekend!
>  I am of the opinion that we can't be too careful with the  
> distillation as
> with other steps involving methanol.
>
>   I would ask you to consider 2 more steps before actually testing the
> glycerine/ methanol mixture.
>   1) trial pure glycerine.  Since Felix mentioned that the heating  
> unit
> might burn out, this seems like a good way to test if the unit will  
> stand
> the viscosity without adding the methanol variable. ( I am  
> purportedly the
> site lead on Saturday, and could pick  up some glycerine to have at  
> the site
> if you would like) If this test is a success, do you think that we  
> should
> consider a further trial of glycerine plus a less flammable alcohol  
> to test
> the distillation?
> I would have to read up to know which alcohol could offer this  
> safer profile
> and still evaporate at the 150 deg range needed to evaporate  
> methanol. I
> would be happy to look some of this up if you would like to procede  
> this
> way.
>
>   2) Set up still in location on site that minimizes risk.  
> ( Perhaps you
> have already thought about this )  Seth mentioned that there are rules
> governing how close methanol can be to other flammables and to  
> people and
> work sites as well, I think. Preparing a nonflammable surface and  
> making
> sure the hose can reach the still seem like necessary steps.  How  
> are you
> envisioning the power supply?
> I don't mean to make unnecessary work for anyone and would be happy  
> to help
> get answers to these questions and help establish the site.
> What do you think? karen
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mixmasters-bounces-qjLDD68F18PzqnJmKJVjZEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org
>> [mailto:mixmasters-bounces-qjLDD68F18PzqnJmKJVjZEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org]On Behalf Of
>> mixmasters-request-qjLDD68F18PzqnJmKJVjZEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org
>> Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 12:03 PM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: mixmasters Digest, Vol 31, Issue 8
>>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. work on methanol still (Zac Imboden)
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> -
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 13:08:46 -0700
>> From: Zac Imboden <[email protected]>
>> Subject: [mixmasters] work on methanol still
>> To: GoBiodiesel Mixmasters <[email protected]>
>> Message-ID: <BCC94CE5-EEE8-4973-B394-F1C097E187D7-aZ6PXv3Ip8kQwY+2splSUA@public.gmane.org>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>>
>> Felix,
>>
>> Saturday should work since there will be no work party then. I didn't
>> read your email before I sent my last one.
>> Seth thinks we should start with water to test out the water heater,
>> then try adding some methanol to the water next and see if we can
>> distill it out of water before trying the goo.
>>
>> Seth also said we need a 3/8" inside diameter clear PVC hose, ten
>> feet, for the recirculation.
>>
>> Let me know what time Saturday. The earlier the better for me.
>>
>> P.S. I am responding through the mixmasters mailing list so others
>> know what we're doing.
>>
>> On Sep 20, 2006, at 9:46 PM, Felix Kersting wrote:
>>
>>> I need to coordinate schedules with my wife.  Saturday may be the
>>> better day - I just got back from a 16 hour trip to Boise and got a
>>> huge project dumped on me that I need to crank out and may need to
>>> be in the office on Friday.
>>>
>>> Would Saturday work just as well for you and your team?
>>>
>>> The still is ready to go (in this incarnation).  We just need to
>>> try it out with about 10 gallons of goo.  Probably best to mix with
>>> water to your favorite ratio since we are using a 240V 3500 W
>>> element.  I'm afraid we may burn it out.  Best to try on a dry day
>>> and we need to use the genset for power.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Felix
>>>
>>> Zac Imboden wrote:
>>>> Sorry. I sent an email out to existing Co-Product members
>>>> regarding tonight's meeting way back on August 31st. It only
>>>> occurred to me yesterday that I should post a notice to the entire
>>>> cooperative regarding it. The meeting has also been listed on the
>>>> website calendar since Sept 1st. From now on, I'll be sure to post
>>>> a notice to all members. I'm glad you were at least interested in
>>>> attending.
>>>>
>>>> Incidentally, your name came up. One of our decisions was to
>>>> emphatically make ourselves available in any capacity whatsoever
>>>> to assist you in getting the methanol still up and running. We
>>>> consider it one of our highest priorities.
>>>>
>>>> So, yes, Friday afternoon I will be there and hopefully other
>>>> coproducteers as well. What time on Friday?
>>>>
>>>> P.S. There's now a coproducts mailing list,
>>>> [email protected] You can sign up for it at:
>>>> http://lists.gobiodiesel.org/mailman/listinfo/coproducts
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 19, 2006, at 10:29 PM, Felix Kersting wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>    one day's notice isn't enough time to be able to schedule to
>>>>> be at a meeting - how about a week?
>>>>>
>>>>> Would anyone be interested in trying the glycerin still on Friday
>>>>> afternoon?
>>>>>
>>>>> Felix
>>>>>
>>>>> Zac Imboden wrote:
>>>>>> 1) Please join us for our next Co-Products Committee Meeting
>>>>>> tomorrow night (Tues, Sept 19th, 2006). Details below.
>>>>>> 2) The Co-Products committee has a new mailing list address,
>>>>>> http://www.gobiodiesel.org/index.php?title=Co-
>>>>>> Product_Meeting_9-19-06
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Co-Product Meeting 9-19-06
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Date: 9/19/06
>>>>>> Time: 6:30 PM
>>>>>> Place: Tea Chai Te (a teashop)
>>>>>> 2223 NE Alberta St. Portland, OR. 97211
>>>>>> (right off the 72 bus)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We will meet to discuss the results of initial research on some
>>>>>> key uses of our glycerin by-product.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These uses are:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Composting the glycerin by-product
>>>>>> Selling a commercial degreaser
>>>>>> Selling a bicycle chain lubricant
>>>>>> Selling the untreated glycerin by-product to industrial buyers
>>>>>> Body Soap
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Zac Imboden
>>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>> 1534 SE 35th Place
>>>>>> Portland, OR
>>>>>> 97214
>>>>>> 971-563-2477
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Zac Imboden
>>>> [email protected]
>>>> 1534 SE 35th Place
>>>> Portland, OR
>>>> 97214
>>>> 971-563-2477
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>> Zac Imboden
>> [email protected]
>> 1534 SE 35th Place
>> Portland, OR
>> 97214
>> 971-563-2477
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
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>> End of mixmasters Digest, Vol 31, Issue 8
>> *****************************************
>>
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--------------------------------------------------------------
Zac Imboden
[email protected]
1534 SE 35th Place
Portland, OR
97214
971-563-2477