Re: FWB: Foss with benefits
Charles Cossé <[email protected]> Sat, 7 Feb 2015 13:54:23 -0700
| Newsgroups | gmane.org.fsf.education.europe |
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| Message-ID | <CABtoULhy0239Jw+Ed66Ldmt7DgmZFdMfH4LA0yoF_B-DOCGsNg@mail.gmail.com> |
--===============2968078503132619741== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1139c298f5bc5b050e85bde0 --001a1139c298f5bc5b050e85bde0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Leny, Thanks for your last very nice, thoughtful post. I'd say we're in pretty good agreement all-around. You made the same point in your conclusion that I reached last night, re my (and others) use of the GPL. And I can state my own perspective now as follows: I use the GPL as a way to *avoid* legal issues and protect my software from being *exploited* by commercial entities. I am going to disappear for a couple days and implement THIS <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/autoteach-developers/HoHiEaIRZ_4> . (with appropriate terminology throughout) One thing I would like to see is FSF and Gentoo Linux coming together over a project like this. Guess we'll see ... Also, regarding FSF(E) endorsement of this project (which I plan to formally request once i have the above demo in-hand), it occurred to me to begin a list of "What's in it for FSF?" (i.e. if FSF were to endorse AutoTeach project) ...at the top of that list is the "be the first on your block with such a thing" factor. And being in that position can/should be a great promotional tool for FSF and others who might endorse. Anyway, it's been great to discuss this with everyone, especially you, Leny ... nice to make your acquaintance and everything. Please join our user <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/autoteach-users> and developer <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/autoteach-developers> groups if you like ... it would help the project to have members ... and any way that readers can share and recommend the project at this critical stage would be very much appreciated. Have an excellent weekend, Charles On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Andrew Lindley <[email protected]= > wrote: > From: Charles Coss=C3=A9 <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [edu-eu] FWB: Foss with benefits > Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 16:41:18 -0700 > > Well, i don't know what i want to do anymore, but i will convince mysel= f > to > > use terminology acceptable to FSF, because i want to work with FSF and = i > do > > share much in common. Quick digression: I am 49 now, and I recall wh= en > > the term FLOSS suddenly hit the stage ... and nobody explained to me > where > > it came from ... but I was already developing FLOSS/GPL'd education > > software at that time ... and like most/many "old dogs" i didn't see th= e > > need for a "new trick". Especially because it doesn't sound very nice = in > > my ear ... much like when JPython had to change names to "Jython" ... y= uk > > yuk and yuk again! I still refer to it as JPython and "jython" in > > parentheses if necessary. > > TBH I am less than enthusiastic about any of the terms or acronyms in > terms of 'branding.' Just go and ask any random ten Jane or John Does > in a shopping mall if they've ever heard of them. But FLOSS is the > FSF preference, so thanks for going with it. > > > Ummm ... "fundamental" and "human" ... nothing human is fundamental. B= ut > > it's okay, i'm not going to eat children. Just torture them with > software > > :) > > As indicated in my email to Kernc I've been fumbling for something > half remembered with my Eating Children argument. So arming you with the > same > definition of 'fundamental' - primary [intangible] from which other > things are derived. Here's what I remember of that school lesson > over 40 years ago. > > Leny: How do we know there are fundamental human rights Sir? > Teach: Would you eat your own children Lindley? > Leny: No, sir. > Teach: Would you eat members of your own family? > Leny: No, sir. > Teach: Would you eat other people? > Leny: In principle no, but I don't what I'd end up doing if they were > dead already and it came down to eat them or die, sir. > Teach: Leave that aside for a moment. Do you think others should do the > same? > Leny: Yes sir. > Teach: Then from the principle that you won't eat your own children > you have extended it to a universal human right that you > personally won't eat anyone. And you have demonstrated that > just because a right is universal does not mean it is absolute. > It's up to you to get the UN to adopt it. > > The taboo against canibalism is not universal, there's no a priori > proof of it, so it is an arbritary moral judgement i.e. of right and > wrong. So nowadays we'd probably say the above was merely a good > illustration of the principle here in the Western Hemisphere. > > The four software freedoms OTOH do have an argument behind them and > from them you can derive things which eliminate or prevent injustices > (aka wrongs) caused by the proprietary software industry and > governments. > > It's my personal opinion those four freedoms are new intrinsic human > rights *necessary* for this nanotech and networked age to operate > justly. So I do what I was taught - try to help make it happen. > > > I'm sure people are weary, but objection! The rights are not "theirs" > > apriori ... not until I give the rights to them. I work hard to gain a > > competitive advantage in the job market, not to just give-away the > > knowledge that sets me apart. The moment I jot-down an idea somebody > else > > does not suddenly have a "(fundamental) right" to it. > > We don't say it does. The position is software should be treated like > scientific knowledge - once published it is everyones, although credit > is given. Given software is merely procedural math notation and math > has traditionally been given the same treatment as scientific > knowledge this is reasonable. > > > So you are saying that everyone has a fundamental human right to > > everything, regardless of the GPL, but the GPL makes it clear that the > > author agrees with that position in case of lawyers? > > The GPL is a legal hack which uses existing copyright law to grant all > users their four freedoms with the respective software. However, just > as you appear to have done, it is used by many people for a whole > variety of other reasons. Thus using it does not always imply any > endorsement of the four freedoms, just as you do not endorse > everything you buy. > > > In conclusion, if this is _this_ hard for me to understand (and accept) > ... > > how can we expect someone entirely unfamiliar with such intricacies to > even > > care? Eating children, lawyers, thought police ... sounds like > "Nightmare > > on (Free) Software Street". Please go easy on me if you reply :) And > > thanks for the continued thought-provoking discussion -- > > Heretofore I've not been explaining the 'Eating children' part very > well, so it's understandable that's hard to comprehend. > > You get people to care by discussing the freedoms with them and making > them meaningful to them in their situation. It can be a long process > and I've only done it one to one where you can tailor your discussion > to the specific individual. Throughout which you've got to remember > they're perfectly entitled to disagree with you along the way, perhaps > you'll never agree and if you do, their opinion will inevitably change > afterwards as a result of other opinions. > > As you will have noticed, sometimes you even have to establish that > there is such a thing as a universal human right. > > OK? > > Leny > > _______________________________________________ > European "Free Software in Education" mailing list > > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-eu > --001a1139c298f5bc5b050e85bde0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div>Hi Leny, <br><br>Thanks for your last = very nice, thoughtful post.=C2=A0 I'd say we're in pretty good agre= ement all-around.=C2=A0 You made the same point in your conclusion that I r= eached last night, re my (and others) use of the GPL.=C2=A0 And I can state= my own perspective now as follows:=C2=A0=C2=A0 I use the GPL as a way to <= b><i>avoid</i></b> legal issues and protect my software from being <b><i>ex= ploited</i></b> by commercial entities.=C2=A0 <br><br></div>I am going to d= isappear for a couple days and implement <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c= om/forum/#!topic/autoteach-developers/HoHiEaIRZ_4">THIS</a> .=C2=A0 (with a= ppropriate terminology throughout)<br><br></div>One thing I would like to s= ee is FSF and Gentoo Linux coming together over a project like this.=C2=A0 = Guess we'll see ...<br><br></div>Also, regarding FSF(E) endorsement of = this project (which I plan to formally request once i have the above demo i= n-hand), it occurred to me to begin a list of "What's in it for FS= F?"=C2=A0 (i.e. if FSF were to endorse AutoTeach project) ...at the to= p of that list is the "be the first on your block with such a thing&qu= ot; factor.=C2=A0 And being in that position can/should be a great promotio= nal tool for FSF and others who might endorse.=C2=A0=C2=A0 <br><br></div><d= iv>Anyway, it's been great to discuss this with everyone, especially yo= u, Leny ... nice to make your acquaintance and everything.=C2=A0 Please joi= n our <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/autoteach-users">u= ser</a> and <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/autoteach-de= velopers">developer</a> groups if you like ... it would help the project to= have members ... and any way that readers can share and recommend the proj= ect at this critical stage would be very much appreciated.<br></div><div><d= iv><div><div><div><div><div><div><br></div><div>Have an excellent weekend,<= br>Charles<br></div><div><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div clas= s=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Andrew Lindley <span dir= =3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank= ">[email protected]</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"= gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-= left:1ex">From: Charles Coss=C3=A9 <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">= [email protected]</a>><br> <span class=3D"">Subject: Re: [edu-eu] FWB: Foss with benefits<br> </span>Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 16:41:18 -0700<br> <span class=3D"">> Well, i don't know what i want to do anymore, but= i will convince myself to<br> > use terminology acceptable to FSF, because i want to work with FSF and= i do<br> > share much in common.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Quick digression:=C2=A0 I am 49 now,= and I recall when<br> > the term FLOSS suddenly hit the stage ... and nobody explained to me w= here<br> > it came from ... but I was already developing FLOSS/GPL'd educatio= n<br> > software at that time ... and like most/many "old dogs" i di= dn't see the<br> > need for a "new trick".=C2=A0 Especially because it doesn= 9;t sound very nice in<br> > my ear ... much like when JPython had to change names to "Jython&= quot; ... yuk<br> > yuk and yuk again!=C2=A0 I still refer to it as JPython and "jyth= on" in<br> > parentheses if necessary.<br> <br> </span>TBH I am less than enthusiastic about any of the terms or acronyms i= n<br> terms of 'branding.'=C2=A0 Just go and ask any random ten Jane or J= ohn Does<br> in a shopping mall if they've ever heard of them.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But FLOSS= is the<br> FSF preference, so thanks for going with it.<br> <span class=3D""><br> > Ummm ... "fundamental" and "human" ... nothing hum= an is fundamental.=C2=A0 But<br> > it's okay, i'm not going to eat children.=C2=A0 Just torture t= hem with software<br> > :)<br> <br> </span>As indicated in my email to Kernc I've been fumbling for somethi= ng<br> half remembered with my Eating Children argument.=C2=A0 So arming you with = the same<br> definition of 'fundamental' - primary [intangible] from which other= <br> things are derived.=C2=A0 Here's what I remember of that school lesson<= br> over 40 years ago.<br> <br> Leny:=C2=A0 How do we know there are fundamental human rights Sir?<br> Teach: Would you eat your own children Lindley?<br> Leny:=C2=A0 No, sir.<br> Teach: Would you eat members of your own family?<br> Leny:=C2=A0 No, sir.<br> Teach: Would you eat other people?<br> Leny:=C2=A0 In principle no, but I don't what I'd end up doing if t= hey were<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0dead already and it came down to eat them or die= , sir.<br> Teach: Leave that aside for a moment. Do you think others should do the sam= e?<br> Leny:=C2=A0 Yes sir.<br> Teach: Then from the principle that you won't eat your own children<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0you have extended it to a universal human right = that you<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0personally won't eat anyone.=C2=A0 And you h= ave demonstrated that<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0just because a right is universal does not mean = it is absolute.<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It's up to you to get the UN to adopt it.<br= > <br> The taboo against canibalism is not universal, there's no a priori<br> proof of it, so it is an arbritary moral judgement i.e. of right and<br> wrong.=C2=A0 So nowadays we'd probably say the above was merely a good<= br> illustration of the principle here in the Western Hemisphere.<br> <br> The four software freedoms OTOH do have an argument behind them and<br> from them you can derive things which eliminate or prevent injustices<br> (aka wrongs) caused by the proprietary software industry and<br> governments.<br> <br> It's my personal opinion those four freedoms are new intrinsic human<br= > rights *necessary* for this nanotech and networked age to operate<br> justly.=C2=A0 So I do what I was taught - try to help make it happen.<br> <span class=3D""><br> > I'm sure people are weary, but objection! The rights are not "= ;theirs"<br> > apriori ... not until I give the rights to them.=C2=A0 I work hard to = gain a<br> > competitive advantage in the job market, not to just give-away the<br> > knowledge that sets me apart.=C2=A0 The moment I jot-down an idea some= body else<br> > does not suddenly have a "(fundamental) right" to it.<br> <br> </span>We don't say it does.=C2=A0 The position is software should be t= reated like<br> scientific knowledge - once published it is everyones, although credit<br> is given.=C2=A0 Given software is merely procedural math notation and math<= br> has traditionally been given the same treatment as scientific<br> knowledge this is reasonable.<br> <span class=3D""><br> > So you are saying that everyone has a fundamental human right to<br> > everything, regardless of the GPL, but the GPL makes it clear that the= <br> > author agrees with that position in case of lawyers?<br> <br> </span>The GPL is a legal hack which uses existing copyright law to grant a= ll<br> users their four freedoms with the respective software.=C2=A0 However, just= <br> as you appear to have done, it is used by many people for a whole<br> variety of other reasons.=C2=A0 Thus using it does not always imply any<br> endorsement of the four freedoms, just as you do not endorse<br> everything you buy.<br> <span class=3D""><br> > In conclusion, if this is _this_ hard for me to understand (and accept= ) ...<br> > how can we expect someone entirely unfamiliar with such intricacies to= even<br> > care?=C2=A0 =C2=A0Eating children, lawyers, thought police ... sounds = like "Nightmare<br> > on (Free) Software Street".=C2=A0 Please go easy on me if you rep= ly :)=C2=A0 And<br> > thanks for the continued thought-provoking discussion --<br> <br> </span>Heretofore I've not been explaining the 'Eating children'= ; part very<br> well, so it's understandable that's hard to comprehend.<br> <br> You get people to care by discussing the freedoms with them and making<br> them meaningful to them in their situation.=C2=A0 It can be a long process<= br> and I've only done it one to one where you can tailor your discussion<b= r> to the specific individual.=C2=A0 Throughout which you've got to rememb= er<br> they're perfectly entitled to disagree with you along the way, perhaps<= br> you'll never agree and if you do, their opinion will inevitably change<= br> afterwards as a result of other opinions.<br> <br> As you will have noticed, sometimes you even have to establish that<br> there is such a thing as a universal human right.<br> <br> OK?<br> <div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br> Leny<br> <br> _______________________________________________<br> European "Free Software in Education" mailing list<br> <br> <a href=3D"https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-eu" target=3D"_blank"= >https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-eu</a><br> </div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></di= v></div></div></div></div></div> --001a1139c298f5bc5b050e85bde0-- --===============2968078503132619741== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ European "Free Software in Education" mailing list https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-eu --===============2968078503132619741==--