Re: [OS:N:] RE: open-source-now-list digest, Vol 1 #664 - 3 msgs

> I am a network manager at a Middle School and I do use and push open
> office and knoppix.

fantastic! your in a great position to help implement change, how many others 
are there like you, do you know any others?
i would think if you could start your own users group on campus you might have 
some interest.

> But it is going to take some major marketing to get
> open source software trusted because people always react the same way
> when I tell them and show them about it. They think its neat but since
> they already have MS garbage they wouldn't consider changing. Microsoft
> and all other major companies have killer advertising and that will
> never happen for open software unless it becomes funded by
> conglomerations of open source producers.

i know what your saying and yes there is "in marketing speak" and image issue 
with people identifying with opensource and recognizing it as quality software, 
with my customers i try to show them how to do things in windows and then show 
the same thing in linux and when they see its not hard in linux and in some 
cases it is easier they begin to realize FUD and where it comes from. 

> I would love to start a group
> dedicated to advertising Linux, redhat, knoppix, and all the other
> valuable alternatives.

sounds like a great idea! time to wrangle up some advertising and media types 
from one of the local colleges i think.

> I have some great ideas for television adds. I
> could imagine a TV advertisement where everyone on the commercial is
> wearing the same size shirt with the Microsoft logo on it. Hundreds of
> tall, short, fat, skinny, children, elderly, etc. people all wearing 
> the same basically the same shirt. Next scene you go to the mall and 
> all the stores carry only that same shirt with these ridiculous price tags.
> Every where you go is the same shirt. Most people looking very
> uncomfortable and having little bugs attached to the shirts because the
> fabric is bug ridden. Then next scene you see these really well dressed
> people comfortable in their customized tailored (tuxedos) suits and
> casual attire. You then have this little kid wearing a bug ridden shirt
> ask his mother "mommy, why can't we dress comfortably like the penguin
> people?" Mommy replies," because that's the only clothes they sell in
> the stores, and besides our shirts cost more anyways!" End of the
> commercial.

dude, that rocks!!! i love it!

> People are so programmed to think that even free computer
> stuff has some misguided catch involved that they can't trust 
> opensource because it just seems too good. They are skeptical.

I think that one of the issues is that quite a few of the people who do know a 
little about their computers have at one point in time or another tried 
shareware and freeware for windows, now there is some decent stuff out there in 
these two catergories but there is alot of crap out there too. I think there is 
a belief that linux is similar to this catergory of software. This is damaging 
in some fashion. The larger segment of windows users though dont realize that 
the reason they have all of these issues and bugs and virus's is because of 
microsoft, most people think its cause they just dont know enough about 
computers so its somehow their fault. I hear this at least a couple of times a 
week. I always shake my head no and whisper to them its not your fault its 
microsofts fault. Again there is a perception issue, "Microsoft is so smart and 
i am so dumb i should feel lucky im able to use their great software, all issues 
and bugs are because i just dont know what im doing and dont understand 
computers well enough"

> I will 
> keep trying though.

As will I
~ :o)
Tnt
> 
> Walter C. Hieber III 
> Network Manager
> Denison Middle School
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 12:00 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: open-source-now-list digest, Vol 1 #664 - 3 msgs
> 
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: Re: Questionaire about the support of students rights and the
> freedom in the learning environment (tek)
>    2. Re: Re: Questionaire about the support of students rights and the
> freedom in the learning environment (James Michael DuPont)
>    3. Re: Re: Questionaire about the support of students rights and the
> freedom in the learning environment (tek)
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 1
> From: "tek" <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [OS:N:] Re: Questionaire about the support of students
> rights and the freedom in the learning environment
> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 13:28:07 -0800
> Reply-To: [email protected]
> 
> > > James Michael DuPont wrote:
> 
> > Alternatives exists for some things. Lets look at the case of a high
> > school teacher that says the english report has to be delivered in
> word
> > format. Examples like that are abounding. 
> 
> I write word documents, things ending in *.doc all the time.
> im not using windows or MS office. If there wasnt something in free
> software 
> that allowed that then i would agree with you but there are several,
> they are 
> free and you get the source code. next?
> 
> Would it be more correct in your world to have the teacher have to buy
> several 
> different software packages to read everyones reports? teachers aren't
> exactly 
> paid very well and the schools dont have budget surplus's either. At
> this point 
> anything you require a school to do that costs them more money requires
> it be 
> taken away from an existing school program, like say lunch's and the
> quality of 
> the food cant go down much further without being unedible in the end.
> The 
> education system is crumbling under the weight of bureacracy and
> administrative 
> costs. its the old to many chiefs and not enough indians analogy. we
> need more 
> teachers not more administration.
> 
> > 
> > These contracts are by design to take away rights. Students are being
> > pressured into to agreeing with them, or the are not able to take part
> > in the learning experience. 
> 
> download openoffice do your report and get on with it.
> 
> > You might say that they can choose not to
> > take part, but is it fair for a taxpayer funded course to have these
> > requirements? Who is benefitting from this? Are the contracts under
> any
> > type of government control? Can a teacher in a local high school
> decide
> > on his own to require the newest version of msword? 
> 
> I will admit that i havent been in school since before computers but i
> dont see 
> that happening, maybe at the college level but not below. besides
> openoffice 
> will write in a format even officeXP can open. You have downloaded
> installed and 
> used it havent you?
> 
> > 
> > I think that we have to look at the real issues at hand,
> 
> one of the issues you might look at is their budget, or lack thereof.
> I am personally contacting the local school districts in my area to 
> hand out knoppix for kids cd's and openoffice cd's, i urge everyone to 
> do the same. I think that has more value both in the long term and the 
> short term than arguing over what file format a report should be 
> allowed to be returned in.
> 
> > and on the
> > large scale, there is a wholesale removal of the rights of millions of
> > students. They are not informed of their rights properly, and are
> given
> > no real alternatives then to sign them away.
> 
> welcome to the bush world. we are losing rights all over the place
> faster than 
> the amazon is losing tree's some in the name of national security,
> others in the 
> name of corporate greed. There are larger issues that have the ability
> to 
> greatly curb your ability to use free software that need activists
> badly. your 
> fighting the effect, not the cause is what i mean to say.
> 
> find out who is the head of your local school district, call and try to
> make an 
> appointment and bring in a laptop with a knoppix for kids cd. bring
> openoffice 
> for windows cd's. let them know about free software, you may get kicked
> to the 
> curb but you also might find a very receptive audience when you ask how
> much 
> they pay for computer apps and show them how to dump the costly 
> software and use free stuff and use the money saved back in the 
> schools. Tnt
> 
> > 
> > mike
> > 
> > =====
> > James Michael DuPont
> > http://introspector.sourceforge.net/
> > 
> > __________________________________
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> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 22:13:45 -0700 (PDT)
> From: James Michael DuPont <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [OS:N:] Re: Questionaire about the support of students
> rights and the freedom in the learning environment
> To: [email protected]
> Reply-To: [email protected]
> 
> --- tek <[email protected]> wrote:
> > 
> > > > James Michael DuPont wrote:
> > 
> > > Alternatives exists for some things. Lets look at the case of a
> > high
> > > school teacher that says the english report has to be delivered in
> > word
> > > format. Examples like that are abounding. 
> > 
> > I write word documents, things ending in *.doc all the time.
> > im not using windows or MS office. If there wasnt something in free
> > software 
> > that allowed that then i would agree with you but there are several,
> > they are 
> > free and you get the source code. next?
> 
> Sorry but not yet. My point is that the word document is a closed file
> format. A public official, or a tax payed representative should not be
> requireing those file format. RTF yes. .doc no.
> 
> The Doc files are one of the file formats that the department of
> justice has demanded be opened up and documented. 
> 
> There are enought examples of open office crashing that I can tell you
> about, at work we have some windows users that love producing files
> that crash open office. 
> 
> Again, word is just an example. The point is that there are many
> teacher who are requiring such file formats, that dont have to be word,
> And word is still a problem. It will be a problem untill microsoft
> publishes the file format, or it changes it EULA.
> 
>  > Would it be more correct in your world to have the teacher have to
> > buy several 
> > different software packages to read everyones reports? 
> 
> TXT. PDF. RTF. HTML.  all standards.
> [SnIP]
> 
> > > You might say that they can choose not to
> > > take part, but is it fair for a taxpayer funded course to have
> > these
> > > requirements? Who is benefitting from this? Are the contracts under
> > any
> > > type of government control? Can a teacher in a local high school
> > decide
> > > on his own to require the newest version of msword? 
> > 
> > 
> > I will admit that i havent been in school since before computers but
> > i dont see 
> > that happening, maybe at the college level but not below. besides
> > openoffice 
> > will write in a format even officeXP can open. You have downloaded
> > installed and 
> > used it havent you?
> 
> Wait untill your kids go to the new microsoft highschool, 
> then we can talk.
> http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/tech/article/0,1406,KNS_8976_2240464,00.html
> 
> > > 
> > > I think that we have to look at the real issues at hand,
> > 
> > one of the issues you might look at is their budget, or lack thereof.
> > I am personally contacting the local school districts in my area to
> > hand out 
> > knoppix for kids cd's and openoffice cd's, i urge everyone to do the
> > same. I 
> > think that has more value both in the long term and the short term
> > than arguing 
> > over what file format a report should be allowed to be returned in.
> 
> I disagree. I have been writing to my congressmen, the president and
> the new CIO of the states about this issue. I think we need to have the
> government enforce the rights of the students to not be forced to use
> non-standard and non-documented file formats.
> 
> Microsoft submitting its file format to ANSI would be a good step in
> the right direction. All of this has been suggested by the department
> of justice, but most people only care what microsoft says now a days
> and not what the DOJ says.
> 
> > 
> > > and on the
> > > large scale, there is a wholesale removal of the rights of millions
> > of
> > > students. They are not informed of their rights properly, and are
> > given
> > > no real alternatives then to sign them away.
> > 
> > welcome to the bush world. 
> Yes, it is very scary. Bush and his worldcom, enron and microsoft
> buddies.
> 
> >we are losing rights all over the place
> > faster than 
> > the amazon is losing tree's some in the name of national security,
> > others in the 
> > name of corporate greed. There are larger issues that have the
> > ability to 
> > greatly curb your ability to use free software that need activists
> > badly. your 
> > fighting the effect, not the cause is what i mean to say.
> 
> I disagree. The fundamental problem here is the disrespect of
> fundamental rights. I feel strongly about my suggestions and think that
> they are the right place to put the pressure.
> 
> > 
> > find out who is the head of your local school district, call and try
> > to make an 
> > appointment and bring in a laptop with a knoppix for kids cd. 
> 
> I live in germany, but am an american citizen. I will be trying to get
> these issues raised on the right level. The local schools need to have
> backing of the government and the EU. Germany is much more open to free
> software and are using it in parliment.
> 
> >bring
> > openoffice 
> > for windows cd's. let them know about free software, you may get
> > kicked to the 
> > curb but you also might find a very receptive audience when you ask
> > how much 
> > they pay for computer apps and show them how to dump the costly
> > software and use 
> > free stuff and use the money saved back in the schools.
> > Tnt
> 
> Yes. That is one aspect. I only have so much time.  RIght now, my
> making an issue out of the students rights is the only thing i have
> time for.
> 
> mie
> 
> =====
> James Michael DuPont
> http://introspector.sourceforge.net/
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 3
> From: "tek" <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [OS:N:] Re: Questionaire about the support of students
> rights and the freedom in the learning environment
> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 22:45:39 -0800
> Reply-To: [email protected]
> 
> I had written a nice long and in depth response, it was so in depth 
> that my damn webmail client i use timed out and all was lost. *POOF* shit.
> 
> let me sum it up like this.
> schools can be converted, the poorer the district the easier it is,
> focus on 
> cost and the  ability to hand out a knoppix cd and essentially give
> every kid a 
> chance to have their own computer without needing a handout from
> microsoft to do 
> so, if your a consultant like me offer to help them out for free, it
> will come 
> back to you later.. do the right thing, your helping lots of people 
> with every hour you donate.
> 
> that is the archilles heal to that argument. free software with free
> support, 
> band together with local LUGs to help educate the educators. sure some
> may not 
> care but some do and you only need a few to make a difference.
> 
> knoppix cd's.
>  leave them in every computer you touch, , libraries, internet lounges,
> friends 
> computers....also makes a great gag gift if you dont tell them its been
> left in 
> their cd tray. lol
> honestly i find them to be great sales tools actually. everytime 
> someone tells me how windows is better and can do so much more i ask 
> them to show me a windows system that will run from the cd. usually 
> shuts up everyone at that point, even the biggest window advocate 
> finds themselves admitting that is pretty damn cool stuff..
> 
> but my best advice is this and no i wish i said it first someone told 
> it to me and they had it told to them but it is so damn true.
> 
>   
> "If you give me a fish you have fed me for a day. If you teach me to
> fish then 
> you have fed me until the river is contaminated and the shoreline is
> seized for 
> development. But if you teach me to organize, then whatever the
> challenge, I can 
> join together with my peers and we will fashion our own solution."
>  ?unattributed 
> 
> Tnt
> 
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