Re: Google and the South African Internet

On Sun, 13 Dec 2015 11:42:32 +0200
Andre Coetzee <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Dec 2015 11:20:15 +0200
> "Paul Blackburn" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <snip - we know Paul is a media guru :)>
> > Fighting with the messenger is counterproductive and truly a waste
> > of time and money.
> this is not about that - this is about thinking whether it is a good
> idea to expend resources to lobby for legislation that will expand and
> extend privacy protection (and by default bullying, extortion and
> other things)
> 
> Should we be empowered to force google.com to remove search results to
> protect our privacy?
> 
> It is actually a yes or no question?
> 
I see this on news24 today:
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/cyber-crime-bill-flawed-r2k-20151213

So, this proposed cybercrime bill empowers the government to manage the Internet?

This seems like the Russian/Chinese Intranet model?

For the SA Government and many citizens, things just cannot continue as they are now. 
It is untenable, difficult (and costly or even impossible) to enforce and there are 
national security, abuse, citizen privacy and many other issues and problems that simply 
has to be (re)solved.

The European Union moved towards strengthening privacy protection for
private citizens and provided methods for EU governments to interact
with ISP's as well as content publishers as well as a plethora of
other laws which all serve to balance free and open Internet with
other rights. 

It is a pity that we are moving in the opposite direction of freedom
and balance, but well, I am just one person with one opinion.

Of course many other countries deal with these problems differently,
personally I am glad that we are moving in some sort of direction, then
we can all adapt to whatever the country/society deems our system and
accept our new laws.

andre

 

> > On your argument we might very well say that Hello Peter falls in
> > the same category... and my perception of them is that they extort a
> > badly publicised company to set the records straight... 
> > Is it fair? I don't think so. 
> 
> well, in that case, it ianal but Hello Peter is extortion - It forces
> companies to pay money to be able to respond to complaints...
> 
> maybe sometime someone should try to file a criminal complaint?
> 
> then again, even though it is exactly that: extortion - will that even
> work in South African Law?
> 
> > Does it work in the greater scheme of things to get companies to toe
> > the line? Perhaps yes.
> > Would I make use of them? Not ever as I have an ethical issue in how
> > things are being dealt with.
> > 
> > And just to drill home this right to "free speech" and perception of
> > individuals...
> > Just the other day there was a matter in court where a person
> > erected a billboard of how bad a company or its services were.
> > (Cannot remember the exact detail of who, what, where.)
> > But the court ruled in favour of the individual confirming he was
> > within his right to tell the world of how he perceived that company.
> > His billboard stayed up.
> > Perhaps Dominic can give more info as she is the legal eagle on this
> > list that sometimes follows such cases.
> > 
> that was cellc and in that case the individual simply published his
> personal experience, not adding fact & fiction together in one banner,
> like mybroadband.co.za is doing in my example.
> 
> the other point I was trying to get across is that our rights to free
> speech has to be in balance with our responsibilities, at the very
> least: the individual in the Cellc banner was identified in the banner
> and he wrote something in his own knowledge, about one cell company -
> not simply "all cellular companies in SA"... etc
> 
> but most important is still the question: Should people be able to
> force and hold search engines responsible for their cache, their
> search results, etc.
> 
> lets say a SA court has ruled that mybroadband.co.za has to take down
> certain pages or content
> 
> Google.com may still have cache in its search index (and keep it
> there forever) and still reflect it in search results - currently you
> can 'request' google.com to remove pages - but legally - it is still
> up to Google to do it or not... And, if you apply to a court, do you
> have to "blanket" apply? and legally how do you even do that? If
> Bing.com, etc etc all have indexes and/or cached pages of the same
> thing?
> 
> btw
> 
> what started my post a few days ago was the bullying of a minor at a
> pvt school in jhb and much the same set of facts as my experience,
> which triggered my post to this list in the first place. 
> 
> If SA Internet was slightly more ethical or large multinationals were
> less evil many of the problems would not even exist...
> 
> andre 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> > Paul Blackburn
> > Omina Solutions CC
> > Cell:  +27 (0) 82 900 6443
> > Fax:  +27 (0) 86 524 9183
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> > 
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> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Andre Coetzee [mailto:[email protected]] 
> > Sent: 13 December 2015 10:45
> > To: Paul Blackburn
> > Cc: 'IOZ'
> > Subject: Re: [IOZ] Google and the South African Internet
> > 
> > 
> > Can we play "what if"? What if this example was not me (or any of
> > the Andre Coetzee's as people generally seem not to like any of us
> > for some reason) let's say it was a child, maybe your child...
> > 
> > Should the child (or someone else) be forced to run a PR campaign?
> > 
> > Thing is that in the EU - The child can FORCE Google.com to remove
> > the search result.
> > 
> > The kid can also FORCE mybroadband.co.za very easily, to remove
> > their rubbish...
> > 
> > As Kieran said, Andre Coetzee is a common name (176+ of us and 3x
> > "internet personalities - if that is a thing??) so in my example,
> > maybe that is not so very relevant and only really serves to
> > demonstrate the problem somewhat...
> > - or am I missing something basic/fundemental?
> > 
> > andre
> > 
> > 
> > On Sun, 13 Dec 2015 10:31:28 +0200
> > "Paul Blackburn" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > 
> > > Have you considered getting a PR company to do a press release
> > > with all the facts and get that published all over on your
> > > behalf, newspaper and online media.
> > > Unfortunately that is how the media works. It might cost you a
> > > couple of bucks to secure publication but that way Google and all
> > > else will have the truth as counter published.
> > > You are fighting a losing battle to even attempt fighting any sort
> > > of media outlet no matter how valid you think they are.
> > > We are in a new age where access to information and information
> > > is king.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Paul Blackburn
> > > Omina Solutions CC
> > > Cell:  +27 (0) 82 900 6443
> > > Fax:  +27 (0) 86 524 9183
> > > Email: [email protected]
> > > Website: http://www.omina.co.za
> > > Website: http://www.racepics.co.za
> > > 
> > > Disclaimer and confidentiality note:
> > > Everything in this e-mail and any attachments relating to the
> > > official business of Omina Solutions CC is proprietary to the
> > > company. It is confidential, legally privileged and protected by
> > > law. Omina Solutions CC does not own and endorse any other
> > > content. Views and opinions are those of the sender unless
> > > clearly stated as being that of the company.
> > > The person addressed in the e-mail is the sole authorised
> > > recipient. Please notify the sender immediately if it has
> > > unintentionally reached you and do not read, disclose or use the
> > > content in any way. Omina Solutions CC cannot assure that the
> > > integrity of this communication has been maintained or that it is
> > > free of errors, virus, interception or interference.
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [email protected]
> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Andre Coetzee
> > > Sent: 11 December 2015 09:08
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Subject: [IOZ] Google and the South African Internet
> > > 
> > > When I search my name on Google.com the 5th result is this:
> > > 
> > > http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php/400259-Arrest-of-Internet-P
> > > ersona
> > > lity-Andre-Coetzee
> > > 
> > > I was arrested in 2012 at my address and held for three days by
> > > the SA Police for refusing to pay a bribe to a police officer.
> > > 
> > > The 'official' reason for my arrest inside a building at my
> > > address is "refusing to provide my address to a police officer"
> > > 
> > > Charges which were quite obviously withdrawn as we still have a 
> > > seemingly/sometimes functional legal system.
> > > 
> > > and, other charges were of course made, etc, etc.
> > > 
> > > Now go read the rubbish that 'mybroadband.co.za'/internet
> > > community publishes and http://google.com promotes as 'fact' or
> > > even closely relevant.
> > > 
> > > Maybe I should have simply paid the bribe, the cop only wanted a
> > > few thousand rands as he confused me with someone else to begin
> > > with. Anyway, I digress.
> > > 
> > > It is the contributions that everyone, including civil society,
> > > makes to South Africa that shapes what it is.
> > > 
> > > Google views "mybroadband.co.za" as a "news" website and as
> > > seemingly has vast popular support by the community (including
> > > you) that represents the South African Internet.
> > > 
> > > meanwhile, the truth is that 'mybroadband.co.za" is obviously not
> > > a "real" news website.
> > > 
> > > But, you, the South African Internet users, and GOOGLE strongly 
> > > supports this "website" for some unknown reason?
> > > 
> > > The result of this 'trust" is that;
> > > 
> > > Every time I meet someone new or try to do new business I find
> > > myself having to explain the post and thread on mybroadband.co.za
> > > 
> > > I have nothing to do with mybroadband.co.za or that thread,
> > > except responding to it and subsequently deleting any account
> > > that I had there
> > > 
> > > On the South African Internet we will either follow the Chinese
> > > model of running a type of intranet or the Russian model, the
> > > European model (which protects private people and privacy - and
> > > the sh1t published by this 'mybroadband' and marketed by
> > > Google.com about an "internet personality' (wtf??) will never fly.
> > > 
> > > But maybe South Africans like the idea of an Intranet (like China)
> > > or security cops like Russia? or what?
> > > 
> > > Andre
> > > 

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