Re: Using Cloudflare after Christchurch
"stuart pilling" <[email protected]> Tue, 9 Jul 2019 19:49:05 +1200
| Newsgroups | gmane.org.operators.nznog |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1606168615== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_10C9_01D5368F.5F85B8C0" Content-Language: en-nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_10C9_01D5368F.5F85B8C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, =20 A long time lurker, but this one seems to be well worth the wait. Can = someone online or offline please provide a list of those houses that = use/support cloudflare as their infrastructure partner of choice. I = don=E2=80=99t really want to wade through the DNC records looking for = cloudflare DNS entries. Commercial pressure comes from business that = buy services as well. =20 Cheers =20 Stu =20 From: [email protected] = [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jed Laundry Sent: Friday, 3 May 2019 11:21 a.m. To: Peter Lambrechtsen; nznog Subject: Re: [nznog] Using Cloudflare after Christchurch =20 Hi all, =20 InternetNZ are working on a well-considered response and I do support = them, but I don't think they are the only organisation or group where = this should be discussed. Especially where operational decisions are = involved which may have downstream effects.=20 I agree with Peter and Michael; the argument that "it's just content" = and that ISPs have no role in layer 8+ policy decisions is a bit = disingenuous, because we regularly filter our customers from bad things. = We run spam filters, we block malware sites, we choose to stop working = with abusive customers; we (try to) make the internet a hostile place = for bad people to operate. This isn't censorship--they can still get = content online--we just don't make it easy for them. Cloudflare have taken a commercial position based on a very US-centric = "free speech" world view that they, effectively, shouldn't try to do any = of this. Personally, I can understand their position, but I don't agree = with it. Lacking any US amendment, the seemingly only way to change this = commercial position is to apply commercial pressure, which is the point = that Peter is making; is anyone considering operational changes to apply = commercial pressure? I know on the consumer side, at $DAYJOB we're looking at edge services. = Cloudflare are of course one of the options. Based on my personal = experience with my free account I was going to strongly back them, but = their continued non-response to these events has made me reconsider that = and my personal IT involvement with them. Thanks, Jed. =20 On Fri, 3 May 2019 at 11:06, Peter Lambrechtsen <[email protected]> wrote: I have tried tweeting eastdakota when I was doxed and haven't had a = response. If you get a response I would be interested. =20 But I highly recommend you ask him the pointed question about the AUP of = Cloudflare as brevity of it speaks volumes: =20 https://www.cloudflare.com/terms/ =20 And ask him why *all* the most vile sites on the internet seem to only = use his services for WAF/DDoS protection and none of the other providers = and why he doesn't do anything about it. It's no mistake that there = isn't any validation of the email address you use when signing up to the = Cloudflare service. =20 Cheers, Peter =20 On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 10:44 AM Mehmet Akcin <[email protected]> wrote: If you have concerns, email the ceo or tweet him @eastdakota. Good guy, = reasonable, and he will take time respond. I know people who work there. = They are not going to let anyone malicious use their platform knowingly. =20 =E2=80=98Mehmet =20 On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 15:14 Michael Fincham <[email protected]> = wrote: On Fri, 3 May 2019 09:10:50 +1200 Jonathan Brewer <[email protected]> wrote: > InternetNZ is the forum to discuss this, not NZNOG. Engineers have a personal responsibility to ensure that the actions they = take, even on behalf of an employer, are ethically right. I do think therefore this is a discussion for NZNOG, being as it is a = community of engineers who do the implementing. --=20 Michael _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list [email protected] https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog --=20 Mehmet +1-424-298-1903 _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list [email protected] https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list [email protected] https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog ------=_NextPart_000_10C9_01D5368F.5F85B8C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:x=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:excel" = xmlns:p=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:powerpoint" = xmlns:a=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:access" = xmlns:dt=3D"uuid:C2F41010-65B3-11d1-A29F-00AA00C14882" = xmlns:s=3D"uuid:BDC6E3F0-6DA3-11d1-A2A3-00AA00C14882" = xmlns:rs=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:rowset" xmlns:z=3D"#RowsetSchema" = xmlns:b=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:publisher" = xmlns:ss=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:spreadsheet" = xmlns:c=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:component:spreadsheet" = xmlns:odc=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:odc" = xmlns:oa=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:activation" = xmlns:html=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" = xmlns:q=3D"http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/envelope/" = xmlns:rtc=3D"http://microsoft.com/officenet/conferencing" = xmlns:D=3D"DAV:" xmlns:Repl=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/repl/" = xmlns:mt=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/meetings/" = xmlns:x2=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/excel/2003/xml" = xmlns:ppda=3D"http://www.passport.com/NameSpace.xsd" = xmlns:ois=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/ois/" = xmlns:dir=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/directory/" = xmlns:ds=3D"http://www.w3.org/2000/09/xmldsig#" = xmlns:dsp=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/dsp" = xmlns:udc=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc" = xmlns:xsd=3D"http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" = xmlns:sub=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/2002/1/alerts/"= xmlns:ec=3D"http://www.w3.org/2001/04/xmlenc#" = xmlns:sp=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/" = xmlns:sps=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/" = xmlns:xsi=3D"http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" = xmlns:udcs=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc/soap" = xmlns:udcxf=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc/xmlfile" = xmlns:udcp2p=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc/parttopart" = xmlns:wf=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/workflow/" = xmlns:dsss=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2006/digsig-setup" = xmlns:dssi=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2006/digsig" = xmlns:mdssi=3D"http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/package/2006/digital-sig= nature" = xmlns:mver=3D"http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/markup-compatibility/2006= " xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns:mrels=3D"http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/package/2006/relationshi= ps" xmlns:spwp=3D"http://microsoft.com/sharepoint/webpartpages" = xmlns:ex12t=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/exchange/services/2006/types"= = xmlns:ex12m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/exchange/services/2006/messag= es" = xmlns:pptsl=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/SlideLibrary/= " = xmlns:spsl=3D"http://microsoft.com/webservices/SharePointPortalServer/Pub= lishedLinksService" xmlns:Z=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" = xmlns:st=3D"" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta = http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><meta = name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered = medium)"><style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} span.EmailStyle17 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only;} @page WordSection1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-NZ link=3Dblue = vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Hi All,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>A long time lurker, but this one seems to be well worth the = wait.=C2=A0 Can someone online or offline please provide a list of those = houses that use/support cloudflare as their infrastructure partner of = choice.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t really want to wade through the DNC = records looking for cloudflare DNS entries.=C2=A0 Commercial pressure = comes from business that buy services as well.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Cheers<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Stu<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div = style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm = 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>= </b><span lang=3DEN-US = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> = [email protected] = [mailto:[email protected]] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jed = Laundry<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, 3 May 2019 11:21 a.m.<br><b>To:</b> = Peter Lambrechtsen; nznog<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [nznog] Using = Cloudflare after Christchurch<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi = all,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>InternetNZ are working on a well-considered response = and I do support them, but I don't think they are the only organisation = or group where this should be discussed. Especially where operational = decisions are involved which may have downstream effects. = <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>I agree with Peter = and Michael; the argument that "it's just content" and that = ISPs have no role in layer 8+ policy decisions is a bit disingenuous, = because we regularly filter our customers from bad things. We run spam = filters, we block malware sites, we choose to stop working with abusive = customers; we (try to) make the internet a hostile place for bad people = to operate. This isn't censorship--they can still get content online--we = just don't make it easy for them.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>Cloudflare have = taken a commercial position based on a very US-centric "free = speech" world view that they, effectively, shouldn't try to do any = of this. Personally, I can understand their position, but I don't agree = with it. Lacking any US amendment, the seemingly only way to change this = commercial position is to apply commercial pressure, which is the point = that Peter is making; is anyone considering operational changes to apply = commercial pressure?<br><br>I know on the consumer side, at $DAYJOB = we're looking at edge services. Cloudflare are of course one of the = options. Based on my personal experience with my free account I was = going to strongly back them, but their continued non-response to these = events has made me reconsider that and my personal IT involvement with = them.<br><br>Thanks,<br>Jed.<br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On = Fri, 3 May 2019 at 11:06, Peter Lambrechtsen <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> = wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote = style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm = 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>I have tried tweeting eastdakota when I was doxed = and haven't had a response. If you get a response I would be = interested.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>But I highly recommend you ask him the pointed = question about the AUP of Cloudflare as brevity of it speaks = volumes:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"https://www.cloudflare.com/terms/" = target=3D"_blank">https://www.cloudflare.com/terms/</a><o:p></o:p></p></d= iv><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>And ask him why *all* the most vile sites on the = internet seem to only use his services for WAF/DDoS protection and none = of the other providers and why he doesn't do anything about it. It's no = mistake that there isn't any validation of the email address you use = when signing up to the Cloudflare service.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>Cheers, Peter<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On = Fri, May 3, 2019 at 10:44 AM Mehmet Akcin <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> = wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote = style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm = 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>If you have concerns, email the ceo or tweet him = @eastdakota. Good guy, reasonable, and he will take time respond. I know = people who work there. They are not going to let anyone malicious use = their platform knowingly.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>=E2=80=98Mehmet<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On = Thu, May 2, 2019 at 15:14 Michael Fincham <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> = wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote = style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm = 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Fri, 3 = May 2019 09:10:50 +1200<br>Jonathan Brewer <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br><br>> = InternetNZ is the forum to discuss this, not NZNOG.<br><br>Engineers = have a personal responsibility to ensure that the actions they take, = even on behalf of an employer, are ethically right.<br><br>I do think = therefore this is a discussion for NZNOG, being as it is a community of = engineers who do the implementing.<br><br>-- = <br>Michael<br>_______________________________________________<br>NZNOG = mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><br><a = href=3D"https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog" = target=3D"_blank">https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog</a><o= :p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>-- = <o:p></o:p></p><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>Mehmet<br>+1-424-298-1903<o:p></o:p></p></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>NZNO= G mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><br><a = href=3D"https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog" = target=3D"_blank">https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog</a><o= :p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>NZNO= G mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><br><a = href=3D"https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog" = target=3D"_blank">https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog</a><o= :p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_10C9_01D5368F.5F85B8C0-- --===============1606168615== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list [email protected] https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog --===============1606168615==--