Re: Using Cloudflare after Christchurch
Jonathan Brewer <[email protected]> Wed, 10 Jul 2019 13:51:29 +0800
| Newsgroups | gmane.org.operators.nznog |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CAGhUyzAL7uZNTGsOzZQJUJkJZV8YDzV1nBBZOuuqhnOQq4VjyA@mail.gmail.com> |
--===============1003474169== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002b0e1f058d4d4513" --0000000000002b0e1f058d4d4513 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stuart, I use CloudFlare as an infrastructure provider of choice & don't believe I fall into any of Peter's reductionist categories. I understand there are levers for suppressing illegal content at every layer of the network stack & there are a lot of hairy jurisdiction problems with doing so. Free Speech and harmful speech mean different things in different places. At the moment I'm staying somewhere a lot of CDN content that's available in NZ isn't served at all - and I'm ok with that. There's a New Zealand forum for discussing these issues called NetHui. It's coming up in October. https://2019.nethui.nz/ Why not discuss there what kind of content should be suppressed, and how NZ can require the CDNs like CloudFlare to stop serving it in NZ? There are also regional forums for discussion. I'll be at the Asia Pacific regional Internet Governance Forum https://aprigf.ru/ next week & happy to have a productive discussion with anyone who comes along about rational solutions for content suppression that don't involve pitchforks & bonfires. Cheers, Jon On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, 15:49 stuart pilling, <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi All, > > > > A long time lurker, but this one seems to be well worth the wait. Can > someone online or offline please provide a list of those houses that > use/support cloudflare as their infrastructure partner of choice. I don= =E2=80=99t > really want to wade through the DNC records looking for cloudflare DNS > entries. Commercial pressure comes from business that buy services as we= ll. > > > > Cheers > > > > Stu > > > > *From:* [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Jed Laundry > *Sent:* Friday, 3 May 2019 11:21 a.m. > *To:* Peter Lambrechtsen; nznog > *Subject:* Re: [nznog] Using Cloudflare after Christchurch > > > > Hi all, > > > > InternetNZ are working on a well-considered response and I do support > them, but I don't think they are the only organisation or group where thi= s > should be discussed. Especially where operational decisions are involved > which may have downstream effects. > > > I agree with Peter and Michael; the argument that "it's just content" and > that ISPs have no role in layer 8+ policy decisions is a bit disingenuous= , > because we regularly filter our customers from bad things. We run spam > filters, we block malware sites, we choose to stop working with abusive > customers; we (try to) make the internet a hostile place for bad people t= o > operate. This isn't censorship--they can still get content online--we jus= t > don't make it easy for them. > > > Cloudflare have taken a commercial position based on a very US-centric > "free speech" world view that they, effectively, shouldn't try to do any = of > this. Personally, I can understand their position, but I don't agree with > it. Lacking any US amendment, the seemingly only way to change this > commercial position is to apply commercial pressure, which is the point > that Peter is making; is anyone considering operational changes to apply > commercial pressure? > > I know on the consumer side, at $DAYJOB we're looking at edge services. > Cloudflare are of course one of the options. Based on my personal > experience with my free account I was going to strongly back them, but > their continued non-response to these events has made me reconsider that > and my personal IT involvement with them. > > Thanks, > Jed. > > > > On Fri, 3 May 2019 at 11:06, Peter Lambrechtsen <[email protected]> wrote: > > I have tried tweeting eastdakota when I was doxed and haven't had a > response. If you get a response I would be interested. > > > > But I highly recommend you ask him the pointed question about the AUP of > Cloudflare as brevity of it speaks volumes: > > > > https://www.cloudflare.com/terms/ > > > > And ask him why *all* the most vile sites on the internet seem to only us= e > his services for WAF/DDoS protection and none of the other providers and > why he doesn't do anything about it. It's no mistake that there isn't any > validation of the email address you use when signing up to the Cloudflare > service. > > > > Cheers, Peter > > > > On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 10:44 AM Mehmet Akcin <[email protected]> wrote: > > If you have concerns, email the ceo or tweet him @eastdakota. Good guy, > reasonable, and he will take time respond. I know people who work there. > They are not going to let anyone malicious use their platform knowingly. > > > > =E2=80=98Mehmet > > > > On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 15:14 Michael Fincham <[email protected]> > wrote: > > On Fri, 3 May 2019 09:10:50 +1200 > Jonathan Brewer <[email protected]> wrote: > > > InternetNZ is the forum to discuss this, not NZNOG. > > Engineers have a personal responsibility to ensure that the actions they > take, even on behalf of an employer, are ethically right. > > I do think therefore this is a discussion for NZNOG, being as it is a > community of engineers who do the implementing. > > -- > Michael > _______________________________________________ > NZNOG mailing list > [email protected] > https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog > > -- > > Mehmet > +1-424-298-1903 > > _______________________________________________ > NZNOG mailing list > [email protected] > https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog > > _______________________________________________ > NZNOG mailing list > [email protected] > https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog > > _______________________________________________ > NZNOG mailing list > [email protected] > https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog > --0000000000002b0e1f058d4d4513 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto">Hi Stuart,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I= use CloudFlare as an infrastructure provider of choice & don't bel= ieve I fall into any of Peter's reductionist categories.</div><div dir= =3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I understand there are levers for sup= pressing illegal content at every layer of the network stack & there ar= e a lot of hairy jurisdiction problems with doing so. Free Speech and harmf= ul speech mean different things in different places. At the moment I'm = staying somewhere a lot of CDN content that's available in NZ isn't= served at all - and I'm ok with that.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div= ><div dir=3D"auto">There's a New Zealand forum for discussing these iss= ues called NetHui. It's coming up in October.=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://2= 019.nethui.nz/">https://2019.nethui.nz/</a> Why not discuss there what kind= of content should be suppressed, and how NZ can require the CDNs like Clou= dFlare to stop serving it in NZ?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir= =3D"auto">There are also regional forums for discussion. I'll be at the= Asia Pacific regional Internet Governance Forum=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://ap= rigf.ru/">https://aprigf.ru/</a> next week & happy to have a productive= discussion with anyone who comes along about rational solutions for conten= t suppression that don't involve pitchforks & bonfires.</div><div d= ir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Cheers,</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br>= </div><div dir=3D"auto">Jon</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div = dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, 15:49 stuart pilling, = <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a= >> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0= 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-NZ" li= nk=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_-4361340999308355124WordSectio= n1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quo= t;Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Hi All,<u></u><u></u>= </span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fami= ly:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<= u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fon= t-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">A long t= ime lurker, but this one seems to be well worth the wait.=C2=A0 Can someone= online or offline please provide a list of those houses that use/support c= loudflare as their infrastructure partner of choice.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t = really want to wade through the DNC records looking for cloudflare DNS entr= ies.=C2=A0 Commercial pressure comes from business that buy services as wel= l.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:= 11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d= "><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font= -size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#= 1f497d">Cheers<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style= =3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"= ;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span= style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif= ";color:#1f497d">Stu<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><s= pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se= rif";color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div style=3D"borde= r:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class= =3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-famil= y:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"= EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-= serif""> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D= "_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">[email protected]</a> [mailto:<a= href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"= noreferrer">[email protected]</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jed L= aundry<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, 3 May 2019 11:21 a.m.<br><b>To:</b> Peter La= mbrechtsen; nznog<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [nznog] Using Cloudflare after Chr= istchurch<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2= =A0<u></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi all,<u></u><u></u></p></d= iv><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class= =3D"MsoNormal">InternetNZ are working on a well-considered response and I d= o support them, but I don't think they are the only organisation or gro= up where this should be discussed. Especially where operational decisions a= re involved which may have downstream effects. <u></u><u></u></p></div><div= ><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>I agree with Peter and Michael; the argument th= at "it's just content" and that ISPs have no role in layer 8+= policy decisions is a bit disingenuous, because we regularly filter our cu= stomers from bad things. We run spam filters, we block malware sites, we ch= oose to stop working with abusive customers; we (try to) make the internet = a hostile place for bad people to operate. This isn't censorship--they = can still get content online--we just don't make it easy for them.<u></= u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0p= t"><br>Cloudflare have taken a commercial position based on a very US-centr= ic "free speech" world view that they, effectively, shouldn't= try to do any of this. Personally, I can understand their position, but I = don't agree with it. Lacking any US amendment, the seemingly only way t= o change this commercial position is to apply commercial pressure, which is= the point that Peter is making; is anyone considering operational changes = to apply commercial pressure?<br><br>I know on the consumer side, at $DAYJO= B we're looking at edge services. Cloudflare are of course one of the o= ptions. Based on my personal experience with my free account I was going to= strongly back them, but their continued non-response to these events has m= ade me reconsider that and my personal IT involvement with them.<br><br>Tha= nks,<br>Jed.<br><br><u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u= ></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, 3 May 2019 a= t 11:06, Peter Lambrechtsen <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D= "_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>= </div><blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padd= ing:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><div><p clas= s=3D"MsoNormal">I have tried tweeting=C2=A0eastdakota when I was doxed and = haven't had a response. If you get a response I would be interested.<u>= </u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><d= iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal">But I highly recommend you ask him the pointed qu= estion about the AUP of Cloudflare as brevity of it speaks volumes:<u></u><= u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><= div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://www.cloudflare.com/terms/" ta= rget=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://www.cloudflare.com/terms/</a><u>= </u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></= div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">And ask him why *all* the most vile sites o= n the internet seem to only use his services for WAF/DDoS protection and no= ne of the other providers and why he doesn't do anything about it. It&#= 39;s no mistake that there isn't any validation of the email address yo= u use when signing up to the Cloudflare service.<u></u><u></u></p></div><di= v><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"Mso= Normal">Cheers, Peter<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNor= mal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, May 3= , 2019 at 10:44 AM Mehmet Akcin <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" tar= get=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<u></u><u>= </u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.= 0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><div= ><p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you have concerns, email the ceo or tweet him @e= astdakota. Good guy, reasonable, and he will take time respond. I know peop= le who work there. They are not going to let anyone malicious use their pla= tform knowingly.<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><= u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=98Mehmet<u>= </u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><d= iv><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 15:14 Michael Fincham= <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nor= eferrer">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><bloc= kquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm= 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fr= i, 3 May 2019 09:10:50 +1200<br>Jonathan Brewer <<a href=3D"mailto:jon.b= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">[email protected]<= /a>> wrote:<br><br>> InternetNZ is the forum to discuss this, not NZN= OG.<br><br>Engineers have a personal responsibility to ensure that the acti= ons they take, even on behalf of an employer, are ethically right.<br><br>I= do think therefore this is a discussion for NZNOG, being as it is a commun= ity of engineers who do the implementing.<br><br>-- <br>Michael<br>________= _______________________________________<br>NZNOG mailing list<br><a href=3D= "mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">NZNO= [email protected]</a><br><a href=3D"https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/l= istinfo/nznog" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://list.waikato.ac= .nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog</a><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div></div><p= class=3D"MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mehme= t<br>+1-424-298-1903<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">________= _______________________________________<br>NZNOG mailing list<br><a href=3D= "mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">NZNO= [email protected]</a><br><a href=3D"https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/l= istinfo/nznog" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://list.waikato.ac= .nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog</a><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div><p class= =3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>NZNOG mai= ling list<br><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" = rel=3D"noreferrer">[email protected]</a><br><a href=3D"https://list.= waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">= https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog</a><u></u><u></u></p></bl= ockquote></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<= br> NZNOG mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"norefe= rrer">[email protected]</a><br> <a href=3D"https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog" rel=3D"norefe= rrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listi= nfo/nznog</a><br> </blockquote></div> --0000000000002b0e1f058d4d4513-- --===============1003474169== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list [email protected] https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog --===============1003474169==--