Re: India's IP policies and US lawmakers.

Well... hunger / starvation are nice bogies to rake up, when it comes to
India, as are seers who sleep on bed of nails and rope climbing tricks !
While hunger and starvation are facts, but using that as an excuse to avoid
discussing or arguing about the social-righteousness of blatant / blind and
unconditional patenting, is not acceptable.

The real point of argument, which is being circumvented with all this
smoke-and-mirrors talk is -- "fair usage of patenting". Since "fair" is
subjective, it must be taboo -- right ?


On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 10:50 AM, Ratnendra Pandey <[email protected]>wrote:

>
>
> My reply generated some spirited response.  Links were thrown at readers
> and  statistics from  some websites were referred to making Google richer
> by a few cents in this process.   Some kind of statment was tried to be
> made by quoting some numbers. Numbers crunching is better suited on finance
> or accounting forums.  We generally discuss policy on this forum. And, this
> particular thread is directly about policy.
> So, I was expecting someone to justify a policy based on idea that
> stealing is good or bad for economy.  I am still trying to get an answer.
>
> Anyway, Let me summarize my observations on what I saw in responses to my
> post:
>
> 1. Socialism:  A fool-proof way to get angry response from some readers
> is to mention India and socialism in the same line. I really do not
> understand why should it be so? Has  the word socialism or socialist become
> somekind of a slur word?  Why do some people feel insulted, or offended
> when India and its policies on various issues referred to as a socialist
> policy? Is use of word socialism during discussion considered  derogatory?
> If the word  "socialist" or "socialism" has become a slur word, then it is
> a matter of grave concern because the Constitution of Indian mentions the
> word socalism in its preamble and says  what India is: "SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST
> SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC".
>
> So, the Indian people who get offended by the word socialist are either
> ignorant that India is a socialist country, or the Indian education has
> failed in instilling  the pride and confidence in the socialist identity.
>
> 2. People dying by falling from trains in Mumbai:  I deliberately
> presented this example because the people who die by falling from train are
> victim of socialist policies.
> They do not die from some random accident. These people hang from window
> railings, or door bars, or anything else that they can get there hands on
> because the trains are  crowded that there is no space inside.  The odds
> are against them. These people generally suffer from a disease far more
> deadly and prevalent than cancer. This diesease is commonly known as
> hunger. Some people call it starvation. These people have to make a very
> difficult choice of dying of starvation or dying by falling from train.  A
> person suffering from cancer can live for a long time. But, I have not
> heard of any hungry or starving person living for more than a few weeks or
> month.  The Indian railway which claims to be run on socilist polcies has
> failed in providing a safe transportation to users. Such deaths can be
> easily avoided by making sufficient investment in transportation
> infrastructure. This can be done without stealing IP.
>
>
> 3.  The fact that Indian education  has failed to produce innovators and
> problem solvers who can be counted on to solve India's problem is self
> evident.  I will leave it to the link-searchers and number producer to use
> the search skills to dig out the statistics using Google (or some open
> source search engine if available).  I am more worried about the vicious
> circle that India seems to be stuck in. Its ill-effect are two fold. First,
> we are not creating  system, or process, to solve the problems of India due
> to not having enough problem solvers amongst us.  Second, we are not
> leaving enough role-models for the generation next to learn from and get
> inspired from.  So, do not expect much from the next generation if the
> current generation does not know what it is doing.  Look at the current
> ones first.
>
> In my previous post I wrote. "The system that produces people who want to
> steal, also produces the people who sit in judgment,  through Supreme
> Courts, high courts, or other regulatory bodies. "
>
> May I add that  the system also produces people who  write tirelessly in
> media and discussion forums  to justify violation of property rights.
>
> 4.    For someone who  really wants to help cancer patients with expensive
> drugs, an ethical response could be to pool their money and buy drugs for
> the patients rather than stealing it from the IP owner.
>
> There are a number of  legitimate ways to help poor and needy.  But,
> stealing is not one of them.
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Ratnendra Pandey
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [india-gii] India's IP policies and US lawmakers.
> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 12:54:09 -0700
>
>
> Ashjit,
> I am glad you asked. But, a better question would have been what the
> supreme court ruling means to Indians and India.
> As far the patent holders are  concerned, to them  it is a loss and any
> loss, howsoever small , is still a loss.
>
> As far as I can tell,  US government is not going to scramble B-52 bombers
> to destroy the plants where these drugs are produced illegally, per the US
> law.
> But, we are
>
>
> I have different perspective on this matter to analyze cost and benefit
> allowing India to produce drugs from stolen IP.
>
> A far more number of people die every year in India for simple things like
> dirty water or dirty air.
> India does not need to steal expensive IP  to save her people from simple
> and avoidable deaths like those from simple diseases  like cholera,
> diearreaha etc and from other simple causes like death by falling from
> overcrowded trains in mumbai suburban system. As far as I can tell from my
> unscientific observation, the number of people who could be saved by drugs
> from stolen IP are very few (any idea how many patients die from cancer
> than from other waterborne and airborne diseases)?
> But, you see, in socialist countries like India where government has to
> showcase what it is doing, revoking patents on cancer drugs is likely to
> get more votes than saving thousands of people who die every year from
> simple things like cholera.  It also stokes felling of nationalism when
> Indian government is seen as fighting a profit seeking American drug
> company.
>
> Cancer is never epidemic. At anytime it affects a very limited number of
> people.  A few cancer patients might be saved by these drugs. Not all
> patient will survive even with these drugs. So for the benefit of  a very
> small minority of patient who were unfortunate enough to suffer from
> cancer, we are subjecting the rest of 1.2 billion Indians to moral
> corruption and unethical environment that comes from stolen IP or living
> off someone else's hardwork or money.  So much for the self-reliant
> Indians. Is eating stolen food or treating with stolen drugs
> self-reliance?
>
> But, the damage to Indian psyche and character caused by stolen IP is far
> more than the benefit that might come from it. I have not heard of anyone
> attaining wealth or prosperity from robbery or stealing. Karma, good or
> bad, always catches up.
>
> Just look at what happened in last twenty years. Indian joined the IT
> revolution in its infancy, but today, twenty years later,  India is no more
> than a supplier of a  large number of cheap H1B type workers.
>
> When Indian foreign minister or other official visits Washington, they
> invariably ask their US counter parts to increase H1-B visa.  I just fall
> into shame when I try to visualize the situation in which the Indian
> minister or negotiator looks into eye of an American bureaucrat and starts
> the beggary.   "Madam, hamare bachhoon ko H1-B visa de do. [ Madam, can you
> give H1-B visas to our kids?].  It is a shame that in the last twenty
> years, India could not upgrade itself from being a supplier of large
> manpower and not much more. What is more shameful is that Indian economic
> system is incapable of absorbing its own supply of human resource.  By the
> way this all happened when you had  a Prime Minister who is a Gold Medal
> Winner and a "Topper" besides being a recipient many honorary doctoral
> degrees.
>
> The best from India, yes from one of those IITs, a system of  white
> elephants that guzzle a large amount of taxpayers money each year to
> produce sub-par engineers most of whom are no better than engineers
> produced at the likes of Tolaram Moolchand College of Science, Engineering,
> and Technology, Benampet, Hamara Pradesh.
>
> Just look at this contrast. The smartest Indian kid can solve 300 IIT
> style question in 3 minutes, a feat that an American kid can never
> achieve.  However, every so many years, an American kid comes up with some
> simple and innovative idea that changes the shape of the economy. A
> Microsoft, Facebook,  Google, or Apple is created and the best Indian minds
> are hired  to do the repetitive work.  An Indian minister begs for H1-B
> visas.
>
> Indian system has failed in giving character so badly needed to be
> original, innovative, and risk taking. Rot learning is encouraged.
> Stealing is justified in one way or another. An impression is generally
> created that progress is not possible without using unfair means. The
> system that produces people who want to steal, also produces the people who
> sit in judgment,  through Supreme Courts, high courts, or other regulatory
> bodies. So, you get the ruling of the kind Supreme Court gave justifying
> stealing patents.
>
> When I was a small child, I was raised with an idea that when wealth is
> lost, nothing is lost; when health is lost, something is lost;  and when
> character is lost, everything is lost.
>
> I am saddened to see that Indian  legal system encourages immoral
> activities that will further degrade  Indian character and ethos.
>
> We will never be independent, innovative, and original so long as we are
> encouraging unethical short cuts.  Not being able to stand on our feet is
> far more  damaging to India than anything else.
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Ratnendra Pandey
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> From: [email protected]
> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 22:17:01 +0530
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [india-gii] India's IP policies and US lawmakers.
>
> Can someone shed light on which IP policies they are talking about here:
>
>
> http://www.livemint.com/Politics/7OHPpGiNbNqk5r0UI3USDN/India-not-willing-to-play-by-the-rules-US-lawmakers.html
>
> “Like all of you, my blood boils when I hear that India is revoking and
> denying patents and granting compulsory licences for cancer treatments or
> adopting local content requirements,” he said. “As a nation, we should
> handle India like my dad did when I was growing up and I made his blood
> boil: He put his arm around me and or pulled me where he would go, to make
> sure his fingers were resting firmly on my shoulder just to inflict some
> pain if I diverted from the course we would go down. That’s what we should
> do with their government,” Olson said. (Congressman from Texas)
>
> --
> Regards
> Ashijit
>
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-- 
regards,
Banibrata
http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
http://twitter.com/edgeliving

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