Re: India's IP policies and US lawmakers.

Please excuse the typos and few grammatical mistakes. Sometimes, I type too
fast for my own good, but I hope the message is still clear.


On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 11:01 AM, Banibrata Dutta
<[email protected]>wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 1:46 PM, Kiritkumar Lathia <[email protected]>wrote:
>
>> Now we are getting somewhere!
>> Before was all the ...ismd (socialism, etc.), then it was "stealing" but
>> now when the capitalist Apple, Amazon, etc. steal patents, it is "patent
>> troll"!
>
>
> Surely one could not have missed the growing trend of the patents held by
> so called patent-trolls having been overturned/nullified post patent
> litigation, with the key argument being, that the patent-holder did nothing
> to turn the objects of patent into a product or something of utility to the
> society. Do note that the article indicates an element to that effect.
>
> Fighting patent trolls takes very deep pockets. You fight an army with an
> army (usually). Since this is about America, I don't see how anyone can
> share examples of anything but capitalist biggies, who fought the trolls.
> There are examples of large multinational playing "trolls" too (a large pan
> atlantic Telecom OEM, makes this a key part of their primary business)!
>
> The point which is easy to miss and overlook is that "patents" are easy to
> abuse. Doesn't matter if it is a troll (running shop out of a shack or a
> cabin), a multinational. Patents being granted for something that very
> fundamental, common-sensical, derivable or possible for anyone else (other
> than the patent holder) to invent independently without picking the brains
> and works of the patent-holder -- is just plain stupid. What is stupid, is
> also unfair.
>
>
>> My father stated stealing is stealing however one colours it or justifies
>> it -
>
>
> Your father (with all due regards), was absolutely right, and I subscribe
> to that idea. And yes, "stealing" is in-general not considered good by the
> society.
>
> However, USA has been stealing international secrets for a very long time,
> as have several other countries. Where is sense of righteousness there ?
> Why assume a moral high-ground so selectively ?
>
> Where this argument is going wrong, is the definition of "stealing". You
> steal something that is someone else's. However for me to accept that
> someone stole a patent, I need to be convince that the patent was really
> someone's rightful property.
>
>
>> so the courts have to decide as to whether the capitalists stole patents
>> from a University or not.
>>
>
> Agreed. My statement was speculative, not judgmental -- even if I avoided
> a "?" at the end of my statement.
>
>
>> In India's case, it was the highest court (Supreme Court) which applied
>> the nation's laws - so now if their decision is not in agreement with
>> capitalist way of stealing money from those who can least afford it so that
>> they can have their steaks, well too bad!
>
>
> Sure.
>
>
>> They should take the case to WTO and International Tribunals but not have
>> a proxy stating "stealing" - this is the real point! and so tiring to read
>> in this e-mail chains,
>>
>
> Which is the reason, I shared the article link some 2-3 days back about
> how industry and government works through "fronts" (instead of the more
> organized/professional "lobby", or the outright commercial mouthpiece,
> called "PR"). The proxies are often the individual mini-fronts. Of course,
> sometimes the proxies are doing this out of their independent will, due to
> misplaced notions, fogged judgement and a sense of standing on an ivory
> tower from where they can pass edicts and judgements about behaviour of the
> lesser mortals.
>
> While we all have the right to form and hold our view, but in the end, if
> the word democracy has any sense left in it, then I'd say, "right" is what
> the majority believe -- everything else being "wrong". If a hungry,
> crowded, under-educated, corrupt nation of billion people believe, that
> soemthing is right, then who cares what a senate or few capitalist honchos
> thing !!
>
>
>> On 4 July 2013 09:21, Banibrata Dutta <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 11:42 AM, Banibrata Dutta <
>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well... hunger / starvation are nice bogies to rake up, when it comes
>>>> to India, as are seers who sleep on bed of nails and rope climbing tricks !
>>>> While hunger and starvation are facts, but using that as an excuse to
>>>> avoid discussing or arguing about the social-righteousness of blatant /
>>>> blind and unconditional patenting, is not acceptable.
>>>>
>>>> The real point of argument, which is being circumvented with all this
>>>> smoke-and-mirrors talk is -- "fair usage of patenting". Since "fair" is
>>>> subjective, it must be taboo -- right ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Forget fairness of patents... here is an example of reputed university
>>> behaving like a patent troll...
>>>
>>>
>>> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/07/patent-wielding-boston-u-seeks-ban-on-apple-amazon-samsung-products/
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 10:50 AM, Ratnendra Pandey <[email protected]>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My reply generated some spirited response.  Links were thrown at
>>>>> readers and  statistics from  some websites were referred to making Google
>>>>> richer by a few cents in this process.   Some kind of statment was tried to
>>>>> be made by quoting some numbers. Numbers crunching is better suited on
>>>>> finance or accounting forums.  We generally discuss policy on this forum.
>>>>> And, this particular thread is directly about policy.
>>>>> So, I was expecting someone to justify a policy based on idea that
>>>>> stealing is good or bad for economy.  I am still trying to get an answer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, Let me summarize my observations on what I saw in responses to
>>>>> my post:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Socialism:  A fool-proof way to get angry response from some
>>>>> readers  is to mention India and socialism in the same line. I really do
>>>>> not understand why should it be so? Has  the word socialism or socialist
>>>>> become somekind of a slur word?  Why do some people feel insulted, or
>>>>> offended when India and its policies on various issues referred to as a
>>>>> socialist policy? Is use of word socialism during discussion considered
>>>>> derogatory?
>>>>> If the word  "socialist" or "socialism" has become a slur word, then
>>>>> it is a matter of grave concern because the Constitution of Indian mentions
>>>>> the word socalism in its preamble and says  what India is: "SOVEREIGN
>>>>> SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC".
>>>>>
>>>>> So, the Indian people who get offended by the word socialist are
>>>>> either ignorant that India is a socialist country, or the Indian education
>>>>> has failed in instilling  the pride and confidence in the socialist
>>>>> identity.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. People dying by falling from trains in Mumbai:  I deliberately
>>>>> presented this example because the people who die by falling from train are
>>>>> victim of socialist policies.
>>>>> They do not die from some random accident. These people hang from
>>>>> window railings, or door bars, or anything else that they can get there
>>>>> hands on because the trains are  crowded that there is no space inside.
>>>>> The odds are against them. These people generally suffer from a disease far
>>>>> more deadly and prevalent than cancer. This diesease is commonly known as
>>>>> hunger. Some people call it starvation. These people have to make a very
>>>>> difficult choice of dying of starvation or dying by falling from train.  A
>>>>> person suffering from cancer can live for a long time. But, I have not
>>>>> heard of any hungry or starving person living for more than a few weeks or
>>>>> month.  The Indian railway which claims to be run on socilist polcies has
>>>>> failed in providing a safe transportation to users. Such deaths can be
>>>>> easily avoided by making sufficient investment in transportation
>>>>> infrastructure. This can be done without stealing IP.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 3.  The fact that Indian education  has failed to produce innovators
>>>>> and problem solvers who can be counted on to solve India's problem is self
>>>>> evident.  I will leave it to the link-searchers and number producer to use
>>>>> the search skills to dig out the statistics using Google (or some open
>>>>> source search engine if available).  I am more worried about the vicious
>>>>> circle that India seems to be stuck in. Its ill-effect are two fold. First,
>>>>> we are not creating  system, or process, to solve the problems of India due
>>>>> to not having enough problem solvers amongst us.  Second, we are not
>>>>> leaving enough role-models for the generation next to learn from and get
>>>>> inspired from.  So, do not expect much from the next generation if the
>>>>> current generation does not know what it is doing.  Look at the current
>>>>> ones first.
>>>>>
>>>>> In my previous post I wrote. "The system that produces people who want
>>>>> to steal, also produces the people who sit in judgment,  through Supreme
>>>>> Courts, high courts, or other regulatory bodies. "
>>>>>
>>>>> May I add that  the system also produces people who  write tirelessly
>>>>> in media and discussion forums  to justify violation of property rights.
>>>>>
>>>>> 4.    For someone who  really wants to help cancer patients with
>>>>> expensive drugs, an ethical response could be to pool their money and buy
>>>>> drugs for the patients rather than stealing it from the IP owner.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are a number of  legitimate ways to help poor and needy.  But,
>>>>> stealing is not one of them.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> Ratnendra Pandey
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> From: [email protected]
>>>>> To: [email protected]
>>>>> Subject: RE: [india-gii] India's IP policies and US lawmakers.
>>>>> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 12:54:09 -0700
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ashjit,
>>>>> I am glad you asked. But, a better question would have been what the
>>>>> supreme court ruling means to Indians and India.
>>>>> As far the patent holders are  concerned, to them  it is a loss and
>>>>> any loss, howsoever small , is still a loss.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as I can tell,  US government is not going to scramble B-52
>>>>> bombers to destroy the plants where these drugs are produced illegally, per
>>>>> the US law.
>>>>> But, we are
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have different perspective on this matter to analyze cost and
>>>>> benefit allowing India to produce drugs from stolen IP.
>>>>>
>>>>> A far more number of people die every year in India for simple things
>>>>> like dirty water or dirty air.
>>>>> India does not need to steal expensive IP  to save her people from
>>>>> simple and avoidable deaths like those from simple diseases  like cholera,
>>>>> diearreaha etc and from other simple causes like death by falling from
>>>>> overcrowded trains in mumbai suburban system. As far as I can tell from my
>>>>> unscientific observation, the number of people who could be saved by drugs
>>>>> from stolen IP are very few (any idea how many patients die from cancer
>>>>> than from other waterborne and airborne diseases)?
>>>>> But, you see, in socialist countries like India where government has
>>>>> to showcase what it is doing, revoking patents on cancer drugs is likely to
>>>>> get more votes than saving thousands of people who die every year from
>>>>> simple things like cholera.  It also stokes felling of nationalism when
>>>>> Indian government is seen as fighting a profit seeking American drug
>>>>> company.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cancer is never epidemic. At anytime it affects a very limited number
>>>>> of people.  A few cancer patients might be saved by these drugs. Not all
>>>>> patient will survive even with these drugs. So for the benefit of  a very
>>>>> small minority of patient who were unfortunate enough to suffer from
>>>>> cancer, we are subjecting the rest of 1.2 billion Indians to moral
>>>>> corruption and unethical environment that comes from stolen IP or living
>>>>> off someone else's hardwork or money.  So much for the self-reliant
>>>>> Indians. Is eating stolen food or treating with stolen drugs
>>>>> self-reliance?
>>>>>
>>>>> But, the damage to Indian psyche and character caused by stolen IP is
>>>>> far more than the benefit that might come from it. I have not heard of
>>>>> anyone attaining wealth or prosperity from robbery or stealing. Karma, good
>>>>> or bad, always catches up.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just look at what happened in last twenty years. Indian joined the IT
>>>>> revolution in its infancy, but today, twenty years later,  India is no more
>>>>> than a supplier of a  large number of cheap H1B type workers.
>>>>>
>>>>> When Indian foreign minister or other official visits Washington, they
>>>>> invariably ask their US counter parts to increase H1-B visa.  I just fall
>>>>> into shame when I try to visualize the situation in which the Indian
>>>>> minister or negotiator looks into eye of an American bureaucrat and starts
>>>>> the beggary.   "Madam, hamare bachhoon ko H1-B visa de do. [ Madam, can you
>>>>> give H1-B visas to our kids?].  It is a shame that in the last twenty
>>>>> years, India could not upgrade itself from being a supplier of large
>>>>> manpower and not much more. What is more shameful is that Indian economic
>>>>> system is incapable of absorbing its own supply of human resource.  By the
>>>>> way this all happened when you had  a Prime Minister who is a Gold Medal
>>>>> Winner and a "Topper" besides being a recipient many honorary doctoral
>>>>> degrees.
>>>>>
>>>>> The best from India, yes from one of those IITs, a system of  white
>>>>> elephants that guzzle a large amount of taxpayers money each year to
>>>>> produce sub-par engineers most of whom are no better than engineers
>>>>> produced at the likes of Tolaram Moolchand College of Science, Engineering,
>>>>> and Technology, Benampet, Hamara Pradesh.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just look at this contrast. The smartest Indian kid can solve 300 IIT
>>>>> style question in 3 minutes, a feat that an American kid can never
>>>>> achieve.  However, every so many years, an American kid comes up with some
>>>>> simple and innovative idea that changes the shape of the economy. A
>>>>> Microsoft, Facebook,  Google, or Apple is created and the best Indian minds
>>>>> are hired  to do the repetitive work.  An Indian minister begs for H1-B
>>>>> visas.
>>>>>
>>>>> Indian system has failed in giving character so badly needed to be
>>>>> original, innovative, and risk taking. Rot learning is encouraged.
>>>>> Stealing is justified in one way or another. An impression is generally
>>>>> created that progress is not possible without using unfair means. The
>>>>> system that produces people who want to steal, also produces the people who
>>>>> sit in judgment,  through Supreme Courts, high courts, or other regulatory
>>>>> bodies. So, you get the ruling of the kind Supreme Court gave justifying
>>>>> stealing patents.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I was a small child, I was raised with an idea that when wealth
>>>>> is lost, nothing is lost; when health is lost, something is lost;  and when
>>>>> character is lost, everything is lost.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am saddened to see that Indian  legal system encourages immoral
>>>>> activities that will further degrade  Indian character and ethos.
>>>>>
>>>>> We will never be independent, innovative, and original so long as we
>>>>> are encouraging unethical short cuts.  Not being able to stand on our feet
>>>>> is far more  damaging to India than anything else.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> Ratnendra Pandey
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> From: [email protected]
>>>>> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 22:17:01 +0530
>>>>> To: [email protected]
>>>>> Subject: [india-gii] India's IP policies and US lawmakers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Can someone shed light on which IP policies they are talking about
>>>>> here:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.livemint.com/Politics/7OHPpGiNbNqk5r0UI3USDN/India-not-willing-to-play-by-the-rules-US-lawmakers.html
>>>>>
>>>>> “Like all of you, my blood boils when I hear that India is revoking
>>>>> and denying patents and granting compulsory licences for cancer treatments
>>>>> or adopting local content requirements,” he said. “As a nation, we should
>>>>> handle India like my dad did when I was growing up and I made his blood
>>>>> boil: He put his arm around me and or pulled me where he would go, to make
>>>>> sure his fingers were resting firmly on my shoulder just to inflict some
>>>>> pain if I diverted from the course we would go down. That’s what we should
>>>>> do with their government,” Olson said. (Congressman from Texas)
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Ashijit
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________ India-gii mailing list
>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>> http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/india-gii
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> India-gii mailing list
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> regards,
>>>> Banibrata
>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
>>>> http://twitter.com/edgeliving
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> regards,
>>> Banibrata
>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
>>> http://twitter.com/edgeliving
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> India-gii mailing list
>>> [email protected]
>>> http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/india-gii
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> regards,
> Banibrata
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
> http://twitter.com/edgeliving
>



-- 
regards,
Banibrata
http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
http://twitter.com/edgeliving

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