Re: India's IP policies and US lawmakers.

On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Kiritkumar Lathia <[email protected]>wrote:

> My anger has been on the fact that this forum has/had been hijacked
> concerning "social science" and "politics" in terms of India bashing.


While, I agree to an extent, but the matter of fact is, forums for
discussing policy (GII-ITC), can never be devoid of politics,
social-science, economics etc. !! Policy framing (in any field) is clearly
a complex matter, and all these aspects are inter-related. I am in favour
of hearing all parties out, and debate on the merits of case. Devil is in
the details, and those who tend to avoid discussing details, while passing
out unsubstantiated opinion and edicts -- need to be called out and
challenged. Sometimes (not always), such people are the ones with a
hidden-agenda... but more frequently, they are under an illusion of being
enlightened-beyond-repair !!

My simple request would be: If India is so bad and full of thieves, etc.,
> and USA is Nirvana; why not move to Nirvana and let people in India get on
> with life and its challenges?


Oh, people have moved, settled and subscribed to the XYZ-way!! While I'd
stop short of calling such people "snobs" (because I hate personal
attacks), but judging others while sitting on an ivory tower, is a
pleasurable pastime.


> I do believe that I do not need lectures on political/social science on
> this e-mail forum which I thought is "technical" in nature concerning GII
> (or ICT). The diatribe on how one's father brought one up (and hence
> implying indirectly that my father somehow "failed" since I have different
> opinion concerning IPs and how they have been applied/interpreted by the
> highest impartial Indian Court - for I do respect Supreme Court), etc. is
> frankly insulting to me and I hope others on this e-mail thread.
>

The honorable Supreme Court and a rather thin slice of the media, are
actually responsible for having managed to retain some sense of reason in
what seems to be an increasingly chaotic state of governance.

As for the comment that our teachers and parents failed us, with poor
quality of upbringing has just proven that perhaps his parents and teachers
aren't feeling too proud right now -- unfortunately, all they managed to
do, inspite of their sincere hardwork was to send their dear lad to become
an American selling the American story to whoever cares to buy it !!
Tsk-tsk.

Now to the IPR question:
> You will note that it is the USA patent policies and US courts where
> trolls thrive. You do not hear of IPR court cases in other countries and
> the judgements of other countries are not that punitive and hence not that
> interesting for the trolls. So we should not extrapolate from US policies
> or experiences to India which is an independent country and not a colony.
>
> My first assumption would be the Boston University (like all Universities
> worldwide) is an institution of higher learning and not a troll.


We both are assuming here. I assumed their behaviour to be akin to
trolling, but trolls aren't always bad -- are they ? They are the ones who
can get the giant megacorps to buckle at their knee. My comment was based
on 2 observations in that article itself:

1. Is it natural for the university to put blanket ban of products, because
one of it's professors has an unsettled patent claim in the products --
when (see my point#2), they don't seem to be the patent owners ?

2. A patent which is held just for sake of preventing others from realizing
a product, without patent holder having any intentions of doing so
their-self, is something that the US legal system has accepted as a
credible challenge. When asked about this aspect, UoB says that this would
be answered by the professor.


> It is rightly requesting payments for its IPs. Not knowing the details, I
> would guess that BU had approached the companies before filing a court
> case. However, in USA, I have found that the only way to discuss, at times,
> is to take the counter party to court and then force them to talk (settle
> outside the court). This has been borne out over and over again.
>

Agreed.


> However, there may be hope there as well when you analyse the Google
> (Motorola Mobility) and Apple court case relating to IPs or what is the
> "fair price" for IPs in a standard when all have signed up to (F)RAND terms
> and conditions. Note that an SDO is also sued in USA - look at the case of
> ETSI (a European SDO) being taken to court by Trueposition in USA. So will
> the same happen for an Indian TSDO (which may be set up soon?)
>

The charter of the Indian TESD and TSDO, it's agenda, powers and
jurisdiction are somewhat unclear at the moment. As I understood reading
some of the reports, the key reason was injecting the PPP element in the
current model.

I would much appreciate if this forum remains technical / information
> sharing and not divert to social sciences and how horrible India is. I am
> proud to be an Indian and I do recognise India has many challenges but the
> same applies to the Nirvana a.k.a. USA where people do die of hunger and it
> is the wealthies country on earth.
>
> Best regards
>
>
> On 5 July 2013 07:47, Banibrata Dutta <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Please excuse the typos and few grammatical mistakes. Sometimes, I type
>> too fast for my own good, but I hope the message is still clear.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 11:01 AM, Banibrata Dutta <
>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 1:46 PM, Kiritkumar Lathia <[email protected]>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Now we are getting somewhere!
>>>> Before was all the ...ismd (socialism, etc.), then it was "stealing"
>>>> but now when the capitalist Apple, Amazon, etc. steal patents, it is
>>>> "patent troll"!
>>>
>>>
>>> Surely one could not have missed the growing trend of the patents held
>>> by so called patent-trolls having been overturned/nullified post patent
>>> litigation, with the key argument being, that the patent-holder did nothing
>>> to turn the objects of patent into a product or something of utility to the
>>> society. Do note that the article indicates an element to that effect.
>>>
>>> Fighting patent trolls takes very deep pockets. You fight an army with
>>> an army (usually). Since this is about America, I don't see how anyone can
>>> share examples of anything but capitalist biggies, who fought the trolls.
>>> There are examples of large multinational playing "trolls" too (a large pan
>>> atlantic Telecom OEM, makes this a key part of their primary business)!
>>>
>>> The point which is easy to miss and overlook is that "patents" are easy
>>> to abuse. Doesn't matter if it is a troll (running shop out of a shack or a
>>> cabin), a multinational. Patents being granted for something that very
>>> fundamental, common-sensical, derivable or possible for anyone else (other
>>> than the patent holder) to invent independently without picking the brains
>>> and works of the patent-holder -- is just plain stupid. What is stupid, is
>>> also unfair.
>>>
>>>
>>>> My father stated stealing is stealing however one colours it or
>>>> justifies it -
>>>
>>>
>>> Your father (with all due regards), was absolutely right, and I
>>> subscribe to that idea. And yes, "stealing" is in-general not considered
>>> good by the society.
>>>
>>> However, USA has been stealing international secrets for a very long
>>> time, as have several other countries. Where is sense of righteousness
>>> there ? Why assume a moral high-ground so selectively ?
>>>
>>> Where this argument is going wrong, is the definition of "stealing". You
>>> steal something that is someone else's. However for me to accept that
>>> someone stole a patent, I need to be convince that the patent was really
>>> someone's rightful property.
>>>
>>>
>>>> so the courts have to decide as to whether the capitalists stole
>>>> patents from a University or not.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Agreed. My statement was speculative, not judgmental -- even if I
>>> avoided a "?" at the end of my statement.
>>>
>>>
>>>> In India's case, it was the highest court (Supreme Court) which applied
>>>> the nation's laws - so now if their decision is not in agreement with
>>>> capitalist way of stealing money from those who can least afford it so that
>>>> they can have their steaks, well too bad!
>>>
>>>
>>> Sure.
>>>
>>>
>>>> They should take the case to WTO and International Tribunals but not
>>>> have a proxy stating "stealing" - this is the real point! and so tiring to
>>>> read in this e-mail chains,
>>>>
>>>
>>> Which is the reason, I shared the article link some 2-3 days back about
>>> how industry and government works through "fronts" (instead of the more
>>> organized/professional "lobby", or the outright commercial mouthpiece,
>>> called "PR"). The proxies are often the individual mini-fronts. Of course,
>>> sometimes the proxies are doing this out of their independent will, due to
>>> misplaced notions, fogged judgement and a sense of standing on an ivory
>>> tower from where they can pass edicts and judgements about behaviour of the
>>> lesser mortals.
>>>
>>> While we all have the right to form and hold our view, but in the end,
>>> if the word democracy has any sense left in it, then I'd say, "right" is
>>> what the majority believe -- everything else being "wrong". If a hungry,
>>> crowded, under-educated, corrupt nation of billion people believe, that
>>> soemthing is right, then who cares what a senate or few capitalist honchos
>>> thing !!
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 4 July 2013 09:21, Banibrata Dutta <[email protected]>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 11:42 AM, Banibrata Dutta <
>>>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Well... hunger / starvation are nice bogies to rake up, when it comes
>>>>>> to India, as are seers who sleep on bed of nails and rope climbing tricks !
>>>>>> While hunger and starvation are facts, but using that as an excuse to
>>>>>> avoid discussing or arguing about the social-righteousness of blatant /
>>>>>> blind and unconditional patenting, is not acceptable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The real point of argument, which is being circumvented with all this
>>>>>> smoke-and-mirrors talk is -- "fair usage of patenting". Since "fair" is
>>>>>> subjective, it must be taboo -- right ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Forget fairness of patents... here is an example of reputed university
>>>>> behaving like a patent troll...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/07/patent-wielding-boston-u-seeks-ban-on-apple-amazon-samsung-products/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 10:50 AM, Ratnendra Pandey <pandey-PkbjNfxxIASIwRZHo2/[email protected]
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My reply generated some spirited response.  Links were thrown at
>>>>>>> readers and  statistics from  some websites were referred to making Google
>>>>>>> richer by a few cents in this process.   Some kind of statment was tried to
>>>>>>> be made by quoting some numbers. Numbers crunching is better suited on
>>>>>>> finance or accounting forums.  We generally discuss policy on this forum.
>>>>>>> And, this particular thread is directly about policy.
>>>>>>> So, I was expecting someone to justify a policy based on idea that
>>>>>>> stealing is good or bad for economy.  I am still trying to get an answer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway, Let me summarize my observations on what I saw in responses
>>>>>>> to my post:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. Socialism:  A fool-proof way to get angry response from some
>>>>>>> readers  is to mention India and socialism in the same line. I really do
>>>>>>> not understand why should it be so? Has  the word socialism or socialist
>>>>>>> become somekind of a slur word?  Why do some people feel insulted, or
>>>>>>> offended when India and its policies on various issues referred to as a
>>>>>>> socialist policy? Is use of word socialism during discussion considered
>>>>>>> derogatory?
>>>>>>> If the word  "socialist" or "socialism" has become a slur word, then
>>>>>>> it is a matter of grave concern because the Constitution of Indian mentions
>>>>>>> the word socalism in its preamble and says  what India is: "SOVEREIGN
>>>>>>> SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, the Indian people who get offended by the word socialist are
>>>>>>> either ignorant that India is a socialist country, or the Indian education
>>>>>>> has failed in instilling  the pride and confidence in the socialist
>>>>>>> identity.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. People dying by falling from trains in Mumbai:  I deliberately
>>>>>>> presented this example because the people who die by falling from train are
>>>>>>> victim of socialist policies.
>>>>>>> They do not die from some random accident. These people hang from
>>>>>>> window railings, or door bars, or anything else that they can get there
>>>>>>> hands on because the trains are  crowded that there is no space inside.
>>>>>>> The odds are against them. These people generally suffer from a disease far
>>>>>>> more deadly and prevalent than cancer. This diesease is commonly known as
>>>>>>> hunger. Some people call it starvation. These people have to make a very
>>>>>>> difficult choice of dying of starvation or dying by falling from train.  A
>>>>>>> person suffering from cancer can live for a long time. But, I have not
>>>>>>> heard of any hungry or starving person living for more than a few weeks or
>>>>>>> month.  The Indian railway which claims to be run on socilist polcies has
>>>>>>> failed in providing a safe transportation to users. Such deaths can be
>>>>>>> easily avoided by making sufficient investment in transportation
>>>>>>> infrastructure. This can be done without stealing IP.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3.  The fact that Indian education  has failed to produce innovators
>>>>>>> and problem solvers who can be counted on to solve India's problem is self
>>>>>>> evident.  I will leave it to the link-searchers and number producer to use
>>>>>>> the search skills to dig out the statistics using Google (or some open
>>>>>>> source search engine if available).  I am more worried about the vicious
>>>>>>> circle that India seems to be stuck in. Its ill-effect are two fold. First,
>>>>>>> we are not creating  system, or process, to solve the problems of India due
>>>>>>> to not having enough problem solvers amongst us.  Second, we are not
>>>>>>> leaving enough role-models for the generation next to learn from and get
>>>>>>> inspired from.  So, do not expect much from the next generation if the
>>>>>>> current generation does not know what it is doing.  Look at the current
>>>>>>> ones first.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In my previous post I wrote. "The system that produces people who
>>>>>>> want to steal, also produces the people who sit in judgment,  through
>>>>>>> Supreme Courts, high courts, or other regulatory bodies. "
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> May I add that  the system also produces people who  write
>>>>>>> tirelessly in media and discussion forums  to justify violation of property
>>>>>>> rights.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 4.    For someone who  really wants to help cancer patients with
>>>>>>> expensive drugs, an ethical response could be to pool their money and buy
>>>>>>> drugs for the patients rather than stealing it from the IP owner.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are a number of  legitimate ways to help poor and needy.  But,
>>>>>>> stealing is not one of them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>> Ratnendra Pandey
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>> From: [email protected]
>>>>>>> To: [email protected]
>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [india-gii] India's IP policies and US lawmakers.
>>>>>>> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 12:54:09 -0700
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ashjit,
>>>>>>> I am glad you asked. But, a better question would have been what the
>>>>>>> supreme court ruling means to Indians and India.
>>>>>>> As far the patent holders are  concerned, to them  it is a loss and
>>>>>>> any loss, howsoever small , is still a loss.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As far as I can tell,  US government is not going to scramble B-52
>>>>>>> bombers to destroy the plants where these drugs are produced illegally, per
>>>>>>> the US law.
>>>>>>> But, we are
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have different perspective on this matter to analyze cost and
>>>>>>> benefit allowing India to produce drugs from stolen IP.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A far more number of people die every year in India for simple
>>>>>>> things like dirty water or dirty air.
>>>>>>> India does not need to steal expensive IP  to save her people from
>>>>>>> simple and avoidable deaths like those from simple diseases  like cholera,
>>>>>>> diearreaha etc and from other simple causes like death by falling from
>>>>>>> overcrowded trains in mumbai suburban system. As far as I can tell from my
>>>>>>> unscientific observation, the number of people who could be saved by drugs
>>>>>>> from stolen IP are very few (any idea how many patients die from cancer
>>>>>>> than from other waterborne and airborne diseases)?
>>>>>>> But, you see, in socialist countries like India where government has
>>>>>>> to showcase what it is doing, revoking patents on cancer drugs is likely to
>>>>>>> get more votes than saving thousands of people who die every year from
>>>>>>> simple things like cholera.  It also stokes felling of nationalism when
>>>>>>> Indian government is seen as fighting a profit seeking American drug
>>>>>>> company.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cancer is never epidemic. At anytime it affects a very limited
>>>>>>> number of people.  A few cancer patients might be saved by these drugs. Not
>>>>>>> all patient will survive even with these drugs. So for the benefit of  a
>>>>>>> very small minority of patient who were unfortunate enough to suffer from
>>>>>>> cancer, we are subjecting the rest of 1.2 billion Indians to moral
>>>>>>> corruption and unethical environment that comes from stolen IP or living
>>>>>>> off someone else's hardwork or money.  So much for the self-reliant
>>>>>>> Indians. Is eating stolen food or treating with stolen drugs
>>>>>>> self-reliance?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But, the damage to Indian psyche and character caused by stolen IP
>>>>>>> is far more than the benefit that might come from it. I have not heard of
>>>>>>> anyone attaining wealth or prosperity from robbery or stealing. Karma, good
>>>>>>> or bad, always catches up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just look at what happened in last twenty years. Indian joined the
>>>>>>> IT revolution in its infancy, but today, twenty years later,  India is no
>>>>>>> more than a supplier of a  large number of cheap H1B type workers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When Indian foreign minister or other official visits Washington,
>>>>>>> they invariably ask their US counter parts to increase H1-B visa.  I just
>>>>>>> fall into shame when I try to visualize the situation in which the Indian
>>>>>>> minister or negotiator looks into eye of an American bureaucrat and starts
>>>>>>> the beggary.   "Madam, hamare bachhoon ko H1-B visa de do. [ Madam, can you
>>>>>>> give H1-B visas to our kids?].  It is a shame that in the last twenty
>>>>>>> years, India could not upgrade itself from being a supplier of large
>>>>>>> manpower and not much more. What is more shameful is that Indian economic
>>>>>>> system is incapable of absorbing its own supply of human resource.  By the
>>>>>>> way this all happened when you had  a Prime Minister who is a Gold Medal
>>>>>>> Winner and a "Topper" besides being a recipient many honorary doctoral
>>>>>>> degrees.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The best from India, yes from one of those IITs, a system of  white
>>>>>>> elephants that guzzle a large amount of taxpayers money each year to
>>>>>>> produce sub-par engineers most of whom are no better than engineers
>>>>>>> produced at the likes of Tolaram Moolchand College of Science, Engineering,
>>>>>>> and Technology, Benampet, Hamara Pradesh.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just look at this contrast. The smartest Indian kid can solve 300
>>>>>>> IIT style question in 3 minutes, a feat that an American kid can never
>>>>>>> achieve.  However, every so many years, an American kid comes up with some
>>>>>>> simple and innovative idea that changes the shape of the economy. A
>>>>>>> Microsoft, Facebook,  Google, or Apple is created and the best Indian minds
>>>>>>> are hired  to do the repetitive work.  An Indian minister begs for H1-B
>>>>>>> visas.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Indian system has failed in giving character so badly needed to be
>>>>>>> original, innovative, and risk taking. Rot learning is encouraged.
>>>>>>> Stealing is justified in one way or another. An impression is generally
>>>>>>> created that progress is not possible without using unfair means. The
>>>>>>> system that produces people who want to steal, also produces the people who
>>>>>>> sit in judgment,  through Supreme Courts, high courts, or other regulatory
>>>>>>> bodies. So, you get the ruling of the kind Supreme Court gave justifying
>>>>>>> stealing patents.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I was a small child, I was raised with an idea that when wealth
>>>>>>> is lost, nothing is lost; when health is lost, something is lost;  and when
>>>>>>> character is lost, everything is lost.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am saddened to see that Indian  legal system encourages immoral
>>>>>>> activities that will further degrade  Indian character and ethos.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We will never be independent, innovative, and original so long as we
>>>>>>> are encouraging unethical short cuts.  Not being able to stand on our feet
>>>>>>> is far more  damaging to India than anything else.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>> Ratnendra Pandey
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>> From: [email protected]
>>>>>>> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 22:17:01 +0530
>>>>>>> To: [email protected]
>>>>>>> Subject: [india-gii] India's IP policies and US lawmakers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can someone shed light on which IP policies they are talking about
>>>>>>> here:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.livemint.com/Politics/7OHPpGiNbNqk5r0UI3USDN/India-not-willing-to-play-by-the-rules-US-lawmakers.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “Like all of you, my blood boils when I hear that India is revoking
>>>>>>> and denying patents and granting compulsory licences for cancer treatments
>>>>>>> or adopting local content requirements,” he said. “As a nation, we should
>>>>>>> handle India like my dad did when I was growing up and I made his blood
>>>>>>> boil: He put his arm around me and or pulled me where he would go, to make
>>>>>>> sure his fingers were resting firmly on my shoulder just to inflict some
>>>>>>> pain if I diverted from the course we would go down. That’s what we should
>>>>>>> do with their government,” Olson said. (Congressman from Texas)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>> Ashijit
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ India-gii mailing
>>>>>>> list [email protected]
>>>>>>> http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/india-gii
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> India-gii mailing list
>>>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>>> http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/india-gii
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>> Banibrata
>>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
>>>>>> http://twitter.com/edgeliving
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> regards,
>>>>> Banibrata
>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
>>>>> http://twitter.com/edgeliving
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> India-gii mailing list
>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>> http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/india-gii
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> regards,
>>> Banibrata
>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
>>> http://twitter.com/edgeliving
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> regards,
>> Banibrata
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
>> http://twitter.com/edgeliving
>>
>
>


-- 
regards,
Banibrata
http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
http://twitter.com/edgeliving

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