Re: India's IP policies and US lawmakers.

On the subject of fairness, here's something that is intimately tied to the
popular version of "freemarket" economics (where socialism is shunned, and
commies are witch-hunted)... the kind of "freemarket" that has the more
skewed version of patenting...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWSxzjyMNpU


On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 5:03 AM, Ratnendra Pandey <[email protected]> wrote:

>  A call for "fairness" is a scoundrels last defense.  This idea is also
> expressed in such age old idioms like "an unskilled workman blaming the
> tool". I am worried at growing sense of "victim-hood" in a large section of
> Indian population. And, I would not want to see that
> the idea of victim-hood  is driving  the  policy of the government .  That
> is why I earlier suggested that we are becoming a country of  blamers as
> opposed to  a country of doers and problem-solvers.
>
> Lets come back to the example of expensive cancer medicine.  The problem
> is with your notion of "fairness".  The said medicine is available in
> market but you do not want to buy it at the price patent holder wants to
> sell because somehow it does not appeal to your
> sense of "fairness".     An argument takes place as a result between you
> and the patent-holder. The patent holder pleads that a "fair" price is
> being charged  for the medicine. Your remain unmoved.
>
> So, the dispute sums up to just one line: Patent holders perception of
> "fairness" versus your perception of "fairness".
>
> As it should happen, if you do not like price, do not buy. Or find some
> other seller. Or look for an alternative medicine.
> Instead, you are unwilling to back down, and you want to rob the patent
> holder of its right.  I guess you also want to teach the patent holder some
> kind of lesson. Or want to show him his place.  Or, you simply want the
> patent holder to know who is calling shots.  You pool resources and  rouse
> people who are suffering from the notion of injured fairness. You pass laws
> or get an judgement from pliant Supreme Court to legitimize  what is an
> blatant aggression on rights of a patent holder.
>
>
> But,no immoral act goes unpunished even if it is given a  legal sanction
> or an innocent name  like socialism. You will have to pay the piper no
> matter what you do. You might succeed in giving victory to your sense of
> "fairness" but you cannot escape  paying  for  the unethical component  in
> some other form, at some other place, or at some other time.  I personally
> do not care  if one has to  individually suffers for its acts, but when
> laws and policies that affect 1.2 billion people are made  on unethical
> ideas, everyone suffers.   That is where India has failed and so has its
> 1.2 Billion people, most of whom have no clue what they are struck by. Most
> of them keep repeating what they have been taught in schools. Clueless
> teachers keep reinforcing the false ideas in classrooms to the captive
> students who have no where else to escape to. Huge cost centers like UGC,
> AISTE, IISC, IITS, DRDO, CDAC,  NPL, CISR etc waste taxpayers money on
> guaranteeing lifetime jobs and post retirement benefits on its employees
> without any apparent  benefit in return to the people of India. Let me
> give  this phenomenon a fancy  name, "Sam Pitroda Syndrome".  *[  On a
> side note: If press or media ever picks up this term, remember it was first
> discussed on this forum. I hope Burka Dutt does a tv show on "Sam Pitroda
> Syndorme" like she did on population, and she invites me to speak so that I
> too can send link to this list  urging all to watch me speaking. I promise
> I will send a summary of what I am going to say beforehand if I am ever
> invited.]*
>
>
>
> I see that the correlation is direct between the level a person lacks in
> skill and talent needed  to succeed and live  happy, and the level  of
> suffering from sense of victim-hood and perceived unfairness.  You will
> rarely find a successful and happy person suffering from these mental
> roadblocks.
>
>  There is way to make drugs (and other good things in life) affordable to
> more people.
>
> Most of the topics we are discussing on IP and property rights  would have
> been irrelevant had the last sixty years since independence  been used to
> groom the talent of Indian people and give them skills needed to be a
> problem-solver and profit makers.   The term "expensive" is relative to the
> earning capacity of the buyer.  The products and services can be made more
> affordable by enhancing the earning captivity  of the consumers.  Higher
> earning capacity raises the demand and profits in the market. This
> encourages more suppliers and entrepreneurs to enter market with new and
> innovative products to meet the increasing demand and to capture bigger
> share of profits.
>
> But, you see, in socialist thinking, profit making is criminalized and
> portrayed as an evil human activity. A looser is asked to decide the
> "appropriate" level of profit that can be allowed. A person who wants  make
> profits is often called a "corrupt or greedy" person.  But, a person who
> steals someone elses property is portrayed  an innocent and a victim of
> some compulsion (The compulsion is usually lack of talent and skills to
> make an honorable living).
>
> Socialists want to make product affordable by stealing from one person and
> giving it to another through a complex system of laws, regulation, taxation
> and government spending programs. This is why India failed.  The
> entrepreneur class and innovators are not fully participating in economy
> leaving India  with a few run of the mill mediocre technology providers who
> then exploit the captive markets. People suffer from sub-par product and
> service (if they have any access to these in first place).  The vicious
> circle keeps moving.
>
>
> I get a sense that Indian consumers do not even know what to demand and
> where to set the level of expectations. Basically, to most Indian
> consumers,  the only thing to compare a bad product or service with  is yet
> another bad product or service. The less bad of the two. For example, to a
> consumer used to 12 hours cut in power supply, a provider who can supply
> power for 11 hour might look like a huge improvement in relative term, in
> reality, though, both fail to meet the  notion of a utility.
>
> Most of the topics that I see coming on this list for discussion, IP,
> voter fraud, poor telecom infrastructure,  security etc all  are tied to
> Indian people lacking earning capacity, right skills and attitude.  But,
> this is technology forum. So, the technology gets blame, inventors and
> patent holders  are called greedy,  and the blame then flows to the
> technology providers , quite a large number of whom happen to be American
> corporations.
>
> Blaming others for ones short comings might provide some emotional comfort
> but it does not solve the problem.
>
> If you cannot afford a product, do not  blame it on the seller. Blame
> yourself and your parents and teachers for not giving you the skills and
> attitude needed to improve your earning capacity.
>
> Demoralization caused by  a skewed notion of fairness, injustice and
> victim hood is one of the key hurdles that is  stoppling people of India
> from achieving full potential and happiness.
>
> Property right violations may give some relief in short term, but the
> moral and economic degradation that it causes extracts a huge price for a
> long period of time.
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Ratnendra Pandey
>
> ------------------------------
> From: [email protected]
> Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 11:42:14 +0530
> Subject: Re: [india-gii] India's IP policies and US lawmakers.
> To: [email protected]
> CC: [email protected]
>
>
> Well... hunger / starvation are nice bogies to rake up, when it comes to
> India, as are seers who sleep on bed of nails and rope climbing tricks !
> While hunger and starvation are facts, but using that as an excuse to
> avoid discussing or arguing about the social-righteousness of blatant /
> blind and unconditional patenting, is not acceptable.
>
> The real point of argument, which is being circumvented with all this
> smoke-and-mirrors talk is -- "fair usage of patenting". Since "fair" is
> subjective, it must be taboo -- right ?
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 10:50 AM, Ratnendra Pandey <[email protected]>wrote:
>
>
>
> My reply generated some spirited response.  Links were thrown at readers
> and  statistics from  some websites were referred to making Google richer
> by a few cents in this process.   Some kind of statment was tried to be
> made by quoting some numbers. Numbers crunching is better suited on finance
> or accounting forums.  We generally discuss policy on this forum. And, this
> particular thread is directly about policy.
> So, I was expecting someone to justify a policy based on idea that
> stealing is good or bad for economy.  I am still trying to get an answer.
>
> Anyway, Let me summarize my observations on what I saw in responses to my
> post:
>
> 1. Socialism:  A fool-proof way to get angry response from some readers
> is to mention India and socialism in the same line. I really do not
> understand why should it be so? Has  the word socialism or socialist become
> somekind of a slur word?  Why do some people feel insulted, or offended
> when India and its policies on various issues referred to as a socialist
> policy? Is use of word socialism during discussion considered  derogatory?
> If the word  "socialist" or "socialism" has become a slur word, then it is
> a matter of grave concern because the Constitution of Indian mentions the
> word socalism in its preamble and says  what India is: "SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST
> SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC".
>
> So, the Indian people who get offended by the word socialist are either
> ignorant that India is a socialist country, or the Indian education has
> failed in instilling  the pride and confidence in the socialist identity.
>
> 2. People dying by falling from trains in Mumbai:  I deliberately
> presented this example because the people who die by falling from train are
> victim of socialist policies.
> They do not die from some random accident. These people hang from window
> railings, or door bars, or anything else that they can get there hands on
> because the trains are  crowded that there is no space inside.  The odds
> are against them. These people generally suffer from a disease far more
> deadly and prevalent than cancer. This diesease is commonly known as
> hunger. Some people call it starvation. These people have to make a very
> difficult choice of dying of starvation or dying by falling from train.  A
> person suffering from cancer can live for a long time. But, I have not
> heard of any hungry or starving person living for more than a few weeks or
> month.  The Indian railway which claims to be run on socilist polcies has
> failed in providing a safe transportation to users. Such deaths can be
> easily avoided by making sufficient investment in transportation
> infrastructure. This can be done without stealing IP.
>
>
> 3.  The fact that Indian education  has failed to produce innovators and
> problem solvers who can be counted on to solve India's problem is self
> evident.  I will leave it to the link-searchers and number producer to use
> the search skills to dig out the statistics using Google (or some open
> source search engine if available).  I am more worried about the vicious
> circle that India seems to be stuck in. Its ill-effect are two fold. First,
> we are not creating  system, or process, to solve the problems of India due
> to not having enough problem solvers amongst us.  Second, we are not
> leaving enough role-models for the generation next to learn from and get
> inspired from.  So, do not expect much from the next generation if the
> current generation does not know what it is doing.  Look at the current
> ones first.
>
> In my previous post I wrote. "The system that produces people who want to
> steal, also produces the people who sit in judgment,  through Supreme
> Courts, high courts, or other regulatory bodies. "
>
> May I add that  the system also produces people who  write tirelessly in
> media and discussion forums  to justify violation of property rights.
>
> 4.    For someone who  really wants to help cancer patients with expensive
> drugs, an ethical response could be to pool their money and buy drugs for
> the patients rather than stealing it from the IP owner.
>
> There are a number of  legitimate ways to help poor and needy.  But,
> stealing is not one of them.
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Ratnendra Pandey
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [india-gii] India's IP policies and US lawmakers.
> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 12:54:09 -0700
>
>
> Ashjit,
> I am glad you asked. But, a better question would have been what the
> supreme court ruling means to Indians and India.
> As far the patent holders are  concerned, to them  it is a loss and any
> loss, howsoever small , is still a loss.
>
> As far as I can tell,  US government is not going to scramble B-52 bombers
> to destroy the plants where these drugs are produced illegally, per the US
> law.
> But, we are
>
>
> I have different perspective on this matter to analyze cost and benefit
> allowing India to produce drugs from stolen IP.
>
> A far more number of people die every year in India for simple things like
> dirty water or dirty air.
> India does not need to steal expensive IP  to save her people from simple
> and avoidable deaths like those from simple diseases  like cholera,
> diearreaha etc and from other simple causes like death by falling from
> overcrowded trains in mumbai suburban system. As far as I can tell from my
> unscientific observation, the number of people who could be saved by drugs
> from stolen IP are very few (any idea how many patients die from cancer
> than from other waterborne and airborne diseases)?
> But, you see, in socialist countries like India where government has to
> showcase what it is doing, revoking patents on cancer drugs is likely to
> get more votes than saving thousands of people who die every year from
> simple things like cholera.  It also stokes felling of nationalism when
> Indian government is seen as fighting a profit seeking American drug
> company.
>
> Cancer is never epidemic. At anytime it affects a very limited number of
> people.  A few cancer patients might be saved by these drugs. Not all
> patient will survive even with these drugs. So for the benefit of  a very
> small minority of patient who were unfortunate enough to suffer from
> cancer, we are subjecting the rest of 1.2 billion Indians to moral
> corruption and unethical environment that comes from stolen IP or living
> off someone else's hardwork or money.  So much for the self-reliant
> Indians. Is eating stolen food or treating with stolen drugs
> self-reliance?
>
> But, the damage to Indian psyche and character caused by stolen IP is far
> more than the benefit that might come from it. I have not heard of anyone
> attaining wealth or prosperity from robbery or stealing. Karma, good or
> bad, always catches up.
>
> Just look at what happened in last twenty years. Indian joined the IT
> revolution in its infancy, but today, twenty years later,  India is no more
> than a supplier of a  large number of cheap H1B type workers.
>
> When Indian foreign minister or other official visits Washington, they
> invariably ask their US counter parts to increase H1-B visa.  I just fall
> into shame when I try to visualize the situation in which the Indian
> minister or negotiator looks into eye of an American bureaucrat and starts
> the beggary.   "Madam, hamare bachhoon ko H1-B visa de do. [ Madam, can you
> give H1-B visas to our kids?].  It is a shame that in the last twenty
> years, India could not upgrade itself from being a supplier of large
> manpower and not much more. What is more shameful is that Indian economic
> system is incapable of absorbing its own supply of human resource.  By the
> way this all happened when you had  a Prime Minister who is a Gold Medal
> Winner and a "Topper" besides being a recipient many honorary doctoral
> degrees.
>
> The best from India, yes from one of those IITs, a system of  white
> elephants that guzzle a large amount of taxpayers money each year to
> produce sub-par engineers most of whom are no better than engineers
> produced at the likes of Tolaram Moolchand College of Science, Engineering,
> and Technology, Benampet, Hamara Pradesh.
>
> Just look at this contrast. The smartest Indian kid can solve 300 IIT
> style question in 3 minutes, a feat that an American kid can never
> achieve.  However, every so many years, an American kid comes up with some
> simple and innovative idea that changes the shape of the economy. A
> Microsoft, Facebook,  Google, or Apple is created and the best Indian minds
> are hired  to do the repetitive work.  An Indian minister begs for H1-B
> visas.
>
> Indian system has failed in giving character so badly needed to be
> original, innovative, and risk taking. Rot learning is encouraged.
> Stealing is justified in one way or another. An impression is generally
> created that progress is not possible without using unfair means. The
> system that produces people who want to steal, also produces the people who
> sit in judgment,  through Supreme Courts, high courts, or other regulatory
> bodies. So, you get the ruling of the kind Supreme Court gave justifying
> stealing patents.
>
> When I was a small child, I was raised with an idea that when wealth is
> lost, nothing is lost; when health is lost, something is lost;  and when
> character is lost, everything is lost.
>
> I am saddened to see that Indian  legal system encourages immoral
> activities that will further degrade  Indian character and ethos.
>
> We will never be independent, innovative, and original so long as we are
> encouraging unethical short cuts.  Not being able to stand on our feet is
> far more  damaging to India than anything else.
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Ratnendra Pandey
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> From: [email protected]
> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 22:17:01 +0530
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [india-gii] India's IP policies and US lawmakers.
>
> Can someone shed light on which IP policies they are talking about here:
>
>
> http://www.livemint.com/Politics/7OHPpGiNbNqk5r0UI3USDN/India-not-willing-to-play-by-the-rules-US-lawmakers.html
>
> “Like all of you, my blood boils when I hear that India is revoking and
> denying patents and granting compulsory licences for cancer treatments or
> adopting local content requirements,” he said. “As a nation, we should
> handle India like my dad did when I was growing up and I made his blood
> boil: He put his arm around me and or pulled me where he would go, to make
> sure his fingers were resting firmly on my shoulder just to inflict some
> pain if I diverted from the course we would go down. That’s what we should
> do with their government,” Olson said. (Congressman from Texas)
>
> --
> Regards
> Ashijit
>
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>
> --
> regards,
> Banibrata
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
> http://twitter.com/edgeliving
>
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-- 
regards,
Banibrata
http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
http://twitter.com/edgeliving

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