Re: Resignation of Suresh Ramasubramanian and Udhay Shankar from the india-gii moderator role

As a member who has written in the (relatively recent) past in support of
Sarabjit's argument, I have to admit that the direct attack by Sarabjit
with the kind of language used, without substantiation is highly
objectionable. The graver and deeper the accusation, the heavier is the
burden of proof and higher is the need to exercise caution. Mere
observations cannot be considered proof, or substance to make extremely
harsh statements and allegations. At the end of it, individual personality
has a huge role to play, however we prefer to believe that we live in a
civilized society!

What is arguably one thing that could be considered to be the final line
being crossed, was the phone call. It is one things to discuss matters over
email and forums, which are significantly impersonal, and quite another
thing to call someone on a phone, especially if you do not have something
pleasant to say. Question is, could moderators have prevented that ? I
doubt -- except if they wield sufficient influence over the member.
However, asking around for Sarbajit's phone number doesn't quite give that
impression.

As we all know, free-speech is a double-edged sword. It is the edge that
hurts one, that is always used as the excuse for curbing it. Government
does it all the time. A suspension (if Sarbajit was a member, or member
via-proxy) for a period, with a strong warning about what is acceptable
behaviour, might be an acceptable way to start. If a member, in spite of
warning(s) doesn't comply, it should be a enough reason for them to be
barred permanently. "Content" alone shouldn't be the sole determinant if
certain member and their behaviour is to be tolerated. All said and done, I
still have lot of respect for Sarbajit for good/courageous things that he
has done, while at the same time and for the same reasons, I have lot of
respect for the people who were accused, or dragged into the quagmire, i.e.
Nikhil, Mahesh, Tarun. They may not contribute to india-gii directly, by
posting content here, but like Sarbajit, they do so in other ways in real
life. Much more than just plain arm-chair activism.

If member opinion counts, then mine is:
- Suresh should definitely reconsider his role as a moderator. A moderator
panel that is always in agreement, is unlikely to be very effective.
- Sarbajit, should be made aware about acceptable vs unacceptable
behaviour, and the fact that sweeping, broad generalizations, and
unsubstantiated allegations, just for provoking reaction - isn't okay.
Contacting someone over phone, dropping in to their office or home --
unless you know them well, is not considered as acceptable behaviour. If
someone has been appointed / nominated by a government agency, even if in a
non-transparent fashion, pick you bone with the government, not with them.
- Nikhil, Tarun, Mahesh to stay and keep contributing in the ways they can.
Even if you wish to reach out to a wider audience, it might not harm
double-posting (as long as your views are posted in full, not just a URL).

Subjects like net-neutrality have many shades and hues. There are
short-term and long-term implications, motivations and agendas. My
understanding is that India-GII exists to discuss and hopefully influence
policy making to be in favour of greater-good of people of India, over a
much longer period of time. We need moderators help to keep those
discussions active and going.

my 2 cents,
Banibrata Dutta



On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Arun Mehta <[email protected]> wrote:

> As I said, there were lapses, and we do intend to moderate with a heavier
> hand.
>
> Could people stop repeating arguments, their own and that of others,
> regarding past moderation?
>
> None of this has any meaning if there is no content being posted on
> india-gii. Could list members focus on posting content, and let the
> moderators get on with their job, please?
>
> Arun Mehta
>
> On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 9:55 AM, Mahesh Murthy <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> I'm no stranger to attacks online. Even on unmoderated forums like
>> Twitter or Facebook
>>
>> But there's a 'block' button out there. I can choose to block out a
>> person who I do not wish to hear from.
>>
>> The 'block' button here is the moderator.
>>
>> If the moderators wish to continue to allow an offensive, obnoxious
>> person airtime, especially when specifically directed against a few of us,
>> then I'd like to understand what exactly the moderator's role is.
>>
>> If this is not moderated, then what on earth ever will be?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Ratnendra Pandey <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In an ideal world, moderators are expected to protect a participant from
>>> the group attack.  But, in an ideal world, the participants too are
>>> expected to come to a public forum with an understanding of the risks that
>>> a discussions could turn bad and your views and acts could be questioned,
>>> and you could receive personal attacks.
>>>
>>> I do not want to appear taking side with Sarabjit because I do not know
>>> all the facts to say who is guilty.
>>>
>>>  I too have been on receiving end of his personal attack.  But, I am a
>>> thick skinned person. In most of the situations, I have found I am the only
>>> one defending or making my position.  For me it is a fair game and I
>>> come to this or other forum with an understanding that eventually all
>>> discussions would turn personal and I too will not be spared.
>>>
>>> There is no clear definition of personal attack. What constitutes a
>>> personal attack is very subjective.
>>>
>>> I am not writing all this to accuse you of overreacting. But, all I am
>>> trying to say that this is a idea of personal attack is a "slippery slope"
>>> and once you step onto it, you do not know where it will stop.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Ratnendra Pandey
>>> ------------------------------
>>> From: [email protected]
>>> Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 08:49:57 +0530
>>> To: [email protected]
>>> Subject: Re: [india-gii] Resignation of Suresh Ramasubramanian and Udhay
>>> Shankar from the india-gii moderator role
>>>
>>> Since this started with my leaving, I'm going to respond just once
>>> before I leave again:
>>>
>>> When I'm attacked without reason on a group or a mailing list, it's the
>>> fault of the person attacking. When I'm attacked relentlessly, it's the
>>> fault of the moderators. I'm a tolerant person, and will engage in debates,
>>> but this went beyond mere debates to consistent, unsubstantiated,
>>> impossible to prove and false accusations, as well as insinuations and
>>> barbs, without listening to any explanation. From a discussion, it very
>>> quickly became an interrogation and bordered on harassment. No matter what
>>> I say, I'm still attacked.
>>>
>>> When such behavior continues, it's the fault of the moderators. It is
>>> also the fault of the members who don't call out such behavior and allow
>>> the tamasha to continue. There was a warning from the moderators, a
>>> response from Mahesh that I remember, and the behavior continued despite a
>>> warning, afaik.
>>>
>>> When I chose not to respond to some of the queries (don't feed the
>>> troll, and all that), I did so because I knew that any response would have
>>> only let to more interrogation, and dare I say, harassment. When I came
>>> home one day, I found that the content of that mail had become the content
>>> of a call, and questions were being asked of my dad regarding my work with
>>> the Delhi Wifi task force. How is he to know? Why should he answer for me?
>>> For me, that is going much too far. I don't need this, especially when at a
>>> time when I was putting everything I've built at risk for something I
>>> believe in: the savetheinternet.in campaign for net neutrality. So I
>>> left the list.
>>>
>>> Sarbajit then sent something of a warning email to my entire editorial
>>> team about watching over how they function. After a bit of back and forth,
>>> we had a civil conversation, before the interrogation began again, albeit
>>> now in a civil manner.
>>>
>>> I've informed Sarbajit that I'm not responding to any of his
>>> communications any more. From his last mail here, it appears that the
>>> accusatory behavior will continue: in this case, it wasn't against me, but
>>> against Mahesh and Pranesh. I'm relieved to find that he now believes that
>>> I'm a good egg, but is everyone a bad egg until he believes they aren't?
>>> Mahesh and Pranesh don't deserve this either.
>>>
>>> To address your point Ken, if accusations are hurled consistently enough
>>> over a period of time, without being responded to, they tend to stick.
>>> That's how it works, unfortunately, and people who are being accused are
>>> forced to respond and defend themselves. Not to address the accuser, but to
>>> address those are reading the accusations.
>>>
>>> I'm a reasonable person, but have no intention of being on a list that
>>> does not act swiftly to address such behavior from its members, and despite
>>> repeat infringements, does not boot them out. No good comes out of this
>>> kind of behavior, no one gains. Such kind of behavior only stalls
>>> proceedings and forces people to do nothing because they're afraid of being
>>> accused of something or the other with every step they take. It also forces
>>> people like me who, admittedly, haven't contributed much to the discussions
>>> here, but have learned from them over the years, to leave. I'd rather spend
>>> my time working than writing such long emails and responding to
>>> accusations.
>>>
>>> Thanks, Suresh, Udhay and Gautam, for taking the stand that you've
>>> taken, but I'd request that you stay for the rest of the largely civil
>>> people in this list. Arun and Vickram, from what it appears to me, will
>>> allow things to go too far. Mahesh and Satish: thanks for speaking up.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 11:55 PM, Ram Bhat <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> The porn industry+gambling dig refers to Anurag Dikshit btw.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 5:46 PM, ken <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>  As a proponent of free speech, I may lean even farther toward
>>> allowance than even Arun.
>>>
>>> Hypothetically, if a member was to post something blatantly racist,
>>> would we feel that such speech should be allowed here? Given that I have
>>> been asked to tone down far less insulting speech, can we not agree that
>>> asking the membership to keep within the topic this list is centered on is
>>> not restricting free speech?
>>>
>>> Accusing someone of being financed by the porn industry is not discourse
>>> I find useful even though it really didn't bother me - but that's because I
>>> believe that every single human being is endowed with an unalienable right
>>> to make a complete jackass out of themselves. This is something I feel very
>>> strongly about, with the understanding that I would be lost without the
>>> freedom to embarrass myself on a regular basis. ;-)
>>>
>>> Cordially,
>>>
>>> Ken DiPietro
>>> Cumberland MD
>>>
>>>
>>> On 05/18/2015 11:47 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote:
>>>
>>> Using your own analogy, suppose he beats his wife at home, but is an
>>> exemplary employee at work (a brilliant programmer or something of the
>>> sort, say).
>>>
>>>  Or perhaps he’s a suave gentleman when he goes to his club for a drink
>>> and a round of golf, and a brilliant quizzer if he’s on a quiz team.
>>>
>>>  If you knew he beat his wife at home, you may want to avoid him
>>> socially but have little or no excuse to avoid or bar him professionally.
>>> Or possibly not.
>>>
>>>  This is an interesting case here.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/firing-of-shawn-simoes-for-off-duty-fhritp-video-reflects-employment-trend-1.3071919
>>>
>>>  I understand Arun’s sterling background in free speech and his
>>> concerns that it should not be suppressed at any costs, and that a radical
>>> voice in the wilderness is a useful thing to have.
>>>
>>>  I can even respect that.
>>>
>>>  However, and I hope Arun’s moderation efforts that he described will
>>> resolve this, a clear line must be drawn between expressing - even strongly
>>> expressing - a minority point of view, versus carrying out vicious personal
>>> attacks on those who hold opposite views.
>>>
>>>  After Arun’s explanatory note and his proposal to moderate Sarbajit, I
>>> consider the matter closed for now.
>>>
>>>  —srs
>>>
>>>
>>>  On 18-May-2015, at 9:01 pm, Ratnendra Pandey <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Take an example. There is a member who beats his wife every evening.
>>> Should this be enough reason to send the member out of this list.
>>> This can be argued from the both sides.  Is it that a bad guy will be
>>> bad guy everywhere?  Or, bad at one occasion or instance does not make the
>>> person always bad?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> India-gii mailing listIndia-gii-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]://lists.india-gii.org/mailman/listinfo/india-gii
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> India-gii mailing list
>>> India-gii-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]
>>> https://lists.india-gii.org/mailman/listinfo/india-gii
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> India-gii mailing list
>>> India-gii-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]
>>> https://lists.india-gii.org/mailman/listinfo/india-gii
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ India-gii mailing list
>>> India-gii-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]
>>> https://lists.india-gii.org/mailman/listinfo/india-gii
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> India-gii mailing list
>>> India-gii-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]
>>> https://lists.india-gii.org/mailman/listinfo/india-gii
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> India-gii mailing list
>> India-gii-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]
>> https://lists.india-gii.org/mailman/listinfo/india-gii
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> India-gii mailing list
> India-gii-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]
> https://lists.india-gii.org/mailman/listinfo/india-gii
>
>


-- 
regards,
Banibrata
http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
http://twitter.com/edgeliving

_______________________________________________
India-gii mailing list
India-gii-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]
https://lists.india-gii.org/mailman/listinfo/india-gii