RE: Non - Linux - But good article

AH...  I missed the message in Richard's Email...  Thank you, Fred, for
your consideration.  This is not about you but you stand out for being
afraid of hurting other people's feeling, what a noble person you are.
: )

Yes, I can't agree with Richard's comments in his email.  What he said
could be truth in some perspectives but not all.  For he made the
changes happened in China sound negative, but ignored the fact what
these changes mean to Chinese people.  For the stories happened in my
family (same as millions of other Chinese families) about my
grandparents, my parents and myself, we know far better than anyone else
what these changes mean to us.  When Richard looked at peasant workers
on construction site, waitresses at restaurant, or hookers on street,
would he see hopes in their eyes?  These people are giving up anything
for their survival, they don't care about their 'face', and their only
asset is their hope about future.  They are tough may be because they
have nothing to lose, for people who are most afraid of domino collapse
is the ones have something to lose.  But I believe Chinese are not
cowards.  We are not afraid of any crisis to happen on us, for we had
survived worse.  The efforts we put to make changes about this country,
maybe awkward and stupid in first world's people's eyes, but we build
them on our strong hopes of what we want to be tomorrow and we are
learning fast.  Richard, as a person who is not involved in this effort,
does not have the right to be cynical about how we did it.  Your
comments could be true, but your tone is totally wrong, which I don't
consider friendly and constructive at all.

Again, I want to state that I respect the freedom that Richard gave his
personnel comments on this mailing list, but I also have the freedom of
not agreeing it.

Too much time spent on writing emails this morning, I must come back to
my work now.  This is the last email I am to post on this issue.  Thanks
for everyone who takes concern about people's feeling and make fair
comments in this mailing list.  It’s cool. 

Amy

-----Original Message-----
From: blug-general-bounces-+qp3TudyjKPvfBIPTTProkB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org
[mailto:blug-general-bounces-+qp3TudyjKPvfBIPTTProkB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Frederic
Muller
Sent: 2004年3月31日 10:27
To: 'Beijing LUG general non-technical discussion list - Not
publiclyposted'
Subject: RE: [blug-general] Non - Linux - But good article

the point was not about the article but the comments in the email... I
guess
I was not clear enough.
Besides this is a Linux group and not a Freedom of speech group. I
remember
not so long ago the issue being raised about sticking to Linux/Open
source
subject.... so why not anymore?

Fred

-----Original Message-----
From: blug-general-bounces-+qp3TudyjKPvfBIPTTProkB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org
[mailto:blug-general-bounces-+qp3TudyjKPvfBIPTTProkB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Su Jiang
Sent: Wednesday 31 March, 2004 10:16
To: 'Beijing LUG general non-technical discussion list - Not
publiclyposted'; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [blug-general] Non - Linux - But good article


Hi, as a Chinese I would like to make a few comments too.

I like the article that Richard recommended.  I am really into my job
and
can't follow up with the discussion in this mailing list all the time.
Often I skipped the articles that Bluggers recommended in their email
but I
happened to read this article and found it is very informative,
interesting
and intelligent.  Personally I would like to thank Richard to have taken
efforts and time to pick this great article and shared with us, isn't
sharing the true spirit of Linux?

I tend to think Fred has been a bit emotional on this issue.  Whatever
we
felt about the wordings or opinions of the article does not change the
fact
at all, right?  The truth is out there, hiding from the truth does not
change it, neither denial.  The article may not telling the ultimate
truth,
but it is informative enough to expend the horizon of our knowledge
about
skyscrapers, isn't this a nice thing?  Why we geeks have to sit in the
well
of technology and stay away from other interesting knowledge?  The
spirit of
technology is not about learning and building but to explore with
passion -
it is a fun tour!

I understand Fred's concern about saving bluggers' time by keeping this
mailing list specialized in technology issues only.  I have to say that
this
sound a bit too up-tight for me. I am an up-tight person at my job too,
but
I don't take this mailing list as serious as my job, and I don't think
we
need to.  I think this is a mailing list of freedom. Richard has the
freedom
of posing articles for people's interest, people who are not interested
has
the freedom of not reading it, and Fred has the freedom to claim that he
was
offended.  I don't agree to make any rules on this mailing list for that
will break the spirit of freedom, which is also the spirit of Linux.

Another thing I can't agree, is the way of your debate.  Where is this
leading?  The article is informative and useful but your debate is not.
Sorry to say so but this is my freedom to express my feeling.  : )

Regards,

Amy

-----Original Message-----
From: blug-general-bounces-+qp3TudyjKPvfBIPTTProkB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org
[mailto:blug-general-bounces-+qp3TudyjKPvfBIPTTProkB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Graham
Brown
Sent: 2004年3月27日 9:14
To: [email protected]; Beijing LUG general non-technical discussion
list -
Not publicly posted
Subject: RE: [blug-general] Non - Linux - But good article

Hello,

As an regular /. reader, of course I have not RTFA.

I also do not want to get into the merits of particular viewpoints, but
I
have been coming to China since 1983 and have lived here full time since
1997.

It would be a go idea to understand the practical realities. Any group
not
specifically approved including the BJLUG  is likely to be

illegal.
Whatever private thought an individual might hold about general
inadequacies in China, expressing them in a public space is not likely
to
be helpful.  In that sense this is a public space - it is recorded and
capable of official scrutiny.

There is a big difference between ping results on a particular IP net
and
general political criticism, even if well founded.

Chinese are, and have every right to be, proud of their country, their
government and their achievements.  The fact that they sometimes
criticise
it is their option - they are citizens.  It is no different from
Australians criticising their own government.  We (Richard and I ) both
know that Australians get really irritated if an  American or Brit does
the
same thing.  Our collective response is likely to be "If you don't like
it
here - leave".  We have Chinese friends and members and they are likely
to
have a similar response, even if their politeness hides it.

China is moving at 100mph - sometimes they get it wrong, or do not plan
etc
etc.  So what?  They are entitled to do it their way.  We are here for
the
ride, but we are guests in their country.  As a group, we should behave
accordingly.  Privately, is another issue.

I suggest that we let it drop and move on to something less
controversial
like our "contact" list :-)

Graham Brown

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