Re: Reasonable deal for pre-ordering Ubuntu tablets
Kathinka <[email protected]> Wed, 6 Apr 2016 14:47:14 +1200
| Newsgroups | gmane.org.user-groups.linux.dunedin.general |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CAMWvXDbTejgwTjukB3rH1EsXkUj8QNu_VSmnfacFxhtq-nyXGQ@mail.gmail.com> |
--===============3548708158820522023== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1142e72015d030052fc7fdde --001a1142e72015d030052fc7fdde Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 6 April 2016 at 14:11, Gene <[email protected]> wrote: > I hadn't intended to change the focus from group to individual. Remove > "worik" and the effect is the same. What I wanted to show is that the > phrasing of one of those sentences is clearly better than the other. "I > don't give a shit about X, folks". "I'm afraid we disagree about X, > folks". I hope that statements like "Comment X was rude" are not thought > to be personal attacks. The subject of the statement is the behavior, not > the person. My own view is that criticism/comments/feedback/whatever, > personal or otherwise, is always welcome as long as it is well-reasoned > and constructive. If you want to get something done, be attentive to both > what you say, *and* how you say it. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 April 2016 at 12:40, worik <[email protected]> wrote: > > On 06/04/16 10:10, Gene wrote: > >> How something is said is *supremely* important: there is a difference > >> between "I don't give a shit about your half-witted opinions Worik" > >> and "I'm afraid we disagree, Worik". They both took the same effort > >> for me to write, but most people would prefer the latter phrasing, > >> which also leaves room for further discussion. > > > > Kathinka did not personally attack anyone. She did not call anyone hal= f > > witted. She was blunt, profane and to the point. A bit verbose about > > "post-verbal art-ahead-of-communication" perhaps, but still, the commen= t > > quoted above is irrelevant and does not apply. > > > > IMO what she really did wrong (and she and I have both committed this > > sin) was criticise Ubuntu (I expect Ubuntu's default interface which I > > think is dreadful for the opposite reasons Kathinka does, I think she i= s > > wrong!) > > > > This has happened before when separated by about 6 months first I and > > then Kathinka posted to the list in frustration and fury when the > > default installation of Ubuntu shifted from Gnome2 like to Unity (which > > was very buggy to boot) with no warning nor way to get the old > > configuration back. From memory it was Kathinka who wore most of the > > personal attacks, but go back to the archives and check for your self. > > She was roundly criticised, not her opinions, but her behaviour (me > > too? I forget). "How could they have the temerity to criticise some > > thing they got for free? " FFS. > > > > My point is that I think Kathinka is blunt, profane and wrong, which is > > entirely OK. She is getting a lot of quite personal criticism that is > > not OK. And additionally what really lies beneath is that many of us > > have very fond feelings for Ubuntu in particular, Linux and Free > > Software generally, and we have quite a bit of cognitive dissonance > > hearing criticism of those systems. I would urge all of us to deal wit= h > > the content of what is said (especially in the absence of ad hominem) > > and not attack the messenger. > > > > W > > > > -- > > Why is the legal status of chardonnay different to that of cannabis? > > [email protected] 021-1680650, (03) 4821804 > > Aotearoa (New Zealand) > > I voted for love > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > DunLUG mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.ethernal.org/listinfo/dunlug > > DunLUG Wiki - http://dunlug.kallisti.net.nz/ > > _______________________________________________ > DunLUG mailing [email protected]://lists.ethernal.org/ > <http://lists.ethernal.org/listinfo/dunlug>listinfo/dunlug > <http://lists.ethernal.org/listinfo/dunlug> DunLUG Wiki - > http://dunlug.kallisti.net.nz/ > <[email protected]> > <http://lists.ethernal.org/listinfo/dunlug> > <http://dunlug.kallisti.net.nz/> > Gene's preference is noted, with the quibble that the meaning is changed: =E2=80=8B ...=E2=80=8B the =E2=80=8B =E2=80=8B phrasing of one of those sentences is clearly better than the other. "I don't give a shit about X, folks". "I'm afraid we disagree about X, folks". The first is clearly one person's opinion, without including or excluding the probability that others share. The second implies that the writer assumes that all readers hold the opposite opinion ("we") - which as it turned out is not the case, no matter how they phrase it. "I disagree with you [plural]" is as inaccurate, in the absence of proof. I take it that the expression "don't give a shit" is to some people a distressing example of NZ vernacular. Interesting, but not a compelling reason to strike it from my vocab. I take the compare and contrast view - if people are told to adapt to features in programs that they dislike, or at the very least refrain from mentioning their dissatisfaction........ Kathinka --001a1142e72015d030052fc7fdde Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,= serif"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font><font><font><font= >On 6 April 2016 at 14:11, Gene </font></font></font></font></span><span di= r=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font><font><font><font>&l= t;</font></font></font></font><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target= =3D"_blank"><font><font><font><font>[email protected]</font></font></font><= /font></a><font><font><font><font>></font></font></font></font></span><s= pan style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font><font><font><font> wrote:<= /font></font></font></font></span><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div= class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p= x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);bo= rder-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><font><font>I hadn't intended t= o change the focus from group to individual. Remove</font></font><br><font>= <font> "worik" and the effect is the same. What I wanted to show is that= the</font></font><br><font><font> phrasing of one of those sentences is clearly better than the other.</font>= <font> "I don't give a shit about X, folks".</font><font> "I'm afraid we disagree about X, folks".</font><font> I hope that statements like "Comment X was rude" are not thought = to be</font><font> personal attacks. The subject of the statement is the behavior, not</font><= font> the person. My own view is that criticism/comments/feedback/</font><font>wh= atever,</font><font> personal or otherwise, is always welcome as long as it is</font><font> well-reasoned and constructive. If you want to get something done, be</font= ><font> attentive to both what you say, *and* how you say it.</font></font><br> <br><font></font><br><font></font><br> <br><font></font><br><font></font><br><font></font><font></font><br><font><= /font><br><font></font><br><font></font><br> <div><div><br><font><font> On 6 April 2016 at 12:40, worik <</font></font><a href=3D"mailto:root@wo= rik.org" target=3D"_blank"><font><font>[email protected]</font></font></a><fon= t><font>> wrote:</font></font><br><font><font> > On 06/04/16 10:10, Gene wrote:</font></font><br><font><font> >> How something is said is *supremely* important: there is a differe= nce</font></font><br><font><font> >> between "I don't give a shit about your half-witted opini= ons Worik"</font></font><br><font><font> >> and "I'm afraid we disagree, Worik". They both took = the same effort</font></font><br><font><font> >> for me to write, but most people would prefer the latter phrasing,= </font></font><br><font><font> >> which also leaves room for further discussion.</font></font><br><f= ont><font> ></font></font><br><font><font> > Kathinka did not personally attack anyone.=C2=A0 She did not call anyo= ne half</font></font><br><font><font> > witted.=C2=A0 She was blunt, profane and to the point. A bit verbose a= bout</font></font><br><font><font> > "post-verbal art-ahead-of-communication" perhaps, but still,= the comment</font></font><br><font><font> > quoted above is irrelevant and does not apply.</font></font><br><font>= <font> ></font></font><br><font><font> > IMO what she really did wrong (and she and I have both committed this<= /font></font><br><font><font> > sin) was criticise Ubuntu (I expect Ubuntu's default interface whi= ch I</font></font><br><font><font> > think is dreadful for the opposite reasons Kathinka does, I think she = is</font></font><br><font><font> > wrong!)</font></font><br><font><font> ></font></font><br><font><font> > This has happened before when separated by about 6 months first I and<= /font></font><br><font><font> > then Kathinka posted to the list in frustration and fury when the</fon= t></font><br><font><font> > default installation of Ubuntu shifted from Gnome2 like to Unity (whic= h</font></font><br><font><font> > was very buggy to boot) with no warning nor way to get the old</font><= /font><br><font><font> > configuration back.=C2=A0 From memory it was Kathinka who wore most of= the</font></font><br><font><font> > personal attacks, but go back to the archives and check for your self.= </font></font><br><font><font> > She was roundly criticised, not her opinions, but her behaviour (me</f= ont></font><br><font><font> > too?=C2=A0 I forget).=C2=A0 =C2=A0"How could they have the temeri= ty to criticise some</font></font><br><font><font> > thing they got for free? " FFS.</font></font><br><font><font> ></font></font><br><font><font> > My point is that I think Kathinka is blunt, profane and wrong, which i= s</font></font><br><font><font> > entirely OK.=C2=A0 She is getting a lot of quite personal criticism th= at is</font></font><br><font><font> > not OK.=C2=A0 And additionally what really lies beneath is that many o= f us</font></font><br><font><font> > have very fond feelings for Ubuntu in particular, Linux and Free</font= ></font><br><font><font> > Software generally, and we have quite a bit of cognitive dissonance</f= ont></font><br><font><font> > hearing criticism of those systems.=C2=A0 I would urge all of us to de= al with</font></font><br><font><font> > the content of what is said (especially in the absence of ad hominem)<= /font></font><br><font><font> > and not attack the messenger.</font></font><br><font><font> ></font></font><br><font><font> > W</font></font><br><font><font> ></font></font><br><font><font> > --</font></font><br><font><font> > Why is the legal status of chardonnay different to that of cannabis?</= font></font><br><font><font> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</= font></font><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank"><font><font= >[email protected]</font></font></a> <a href=3D"tel:021-1680650" value=3D"+642= 11680650" target=3D"_blank"><font><font>021-1680650</font></font></a><font>= <font>, </font></font><a href=3D"tel:%2803%29%204821804" value=3D"+64348218= 04" target=3D"_blank"><font><font>(03) 4821804</font></font></a><br><font><= font> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Aotearoa (New Zealand)</font></font><br><font><f= ont> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I voted for love</font></font><br><font>= <font> ></font></font><br><font><font> ></font></font><br><font><font> > ______________________________</font></font><font><font>______________= ___</font></font><br><font><font> > DunLUG mailing list</font></font><br><font><font> > </font></font><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_= blank"><font><font>[email protected]</font></font></a><br><font><fo= nt> > </font></font><a href=3D"http://lists.ethernal.org/listinfo/dunlug" re= l=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"><font><font>http://lists.ethernal.org/</= font></font><font><font>listinfo/dunlug</font></font></a><br><font><font> > DunLUG Wiki - </font></font><a href=3D"http://dunlug.kallisti.net.nz/"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"><font><font>http://dunlug.kallisti.ne= t.nz/</font></font></a><br> <br><font><font> ______________________________</font></font><font><font>_________________</= font></font><br><font><font> DunLUG mailing list</font><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" targ= et=3D"_blank"><font>[email protected]</font></a><a href=3D"http://l= ists.ethernal.org/listinfo/dunlug" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"><fo= nt>http://lists.ethernal.org/</font></a><a href=3D"http://lists.ethernal.or= g/listinfo/dunlug" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"><font>listinfo/dunl= ug</font></a><font> DunLUG Wiki - </font><a href=3D"http://dunlug.kallisti.net.nz/" rel=3D"nore= ferrer" target=3D"_blank"><font>http://dunlug.kallisti.net.nz/</font></a></= font><br> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank"><font></font= ></a><br> <a href=3D"http://lists.ethernal.org/listinfo/dunlug" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta= rget=3D"_blank"><font></font><font></font></a><br><font></font><a href=3D"h= ttp://dunlug.kallisti.net.nz/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"><font><= /font></a></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><font><= font>Gene's preference is noted, with the quibble that the meaning is c= hanged:</font></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><font><font><div clas= s=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif;display:inline">=E2= =80=8B ...=E2=80=8B</div><font><font>the</font></font><div class=3D"gmail_d= efault" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif;display:inline"><font><font>=E2= =80=8B =E2=80=8B</font></font></div></font></font><font><font><font><font>p= hrasing of one of those sentences is clearly better than the other.</font><= /font></font></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class= =3D"gmail_extra"><font><font><font><font>"I don't give a shit abou= t X, folks".</font></font></font></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_extr= a"><font><font><font><font>"I'm afraid we disagree about X, folks&= quot;.</font></font></font></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><font><f= ont><font><font><br></font></font></font></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_e= xtra"><font><font><font><font><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fa= mily:georgia,serif;display:inline"><font><font class=3D"">The first is clea= rly one person's opinion, without including or excluding the probabilit= y that others share.</font></font></div><br></font></font></font></font></d= iv><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><font><font><font><font><div class=3D"gmail_d= efault" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif;display:inline"><font><font clas= s=3D"">The second implies that the writer assumes that all readers hold the= opposite opinion ("we") - which as it turned out is not the case= , no matter how they phrase it.=C2=A0</font></font></div></font></font></fo= nt></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><font><font><font><font><div cla= ss=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif;display:inline"><fo= nt><font class=3D""><br></font></font></div></font></font></font></font></d= iv><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><font><font><font><font><div class=3D"gmail_d= efault" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif;display:inline"><font><font clas= s=3D"">"I disagree with you [plural]" is as inaccurate, in the ab= sence of proof.</font></font></div></font></font></font></font></div><div c= lass=3D"gmail_extra"><font><font><font><font><div class=3D"gmail_default" s= tyle=3D"font-family:georgia,serif;display:inline"><font><font class=3D""><b= r></font></font></div></font></font></font></font></div><div class=3D"gmail= _extra"><font><font><font><font><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-= family:georgia,serif;display:inline"><font><font class=3D"">I take it that = the expression "don't give a shit" is to some people a distre= ssing example of NZ vernacular.=C2=A0 Interesting, but not a compelling rea= son to strike it from my vocab.=C2=A0 I take the compare and contrast view = - if people are told to adapt to features in programs that they dislike, or= at the very least refrain from mentioning their dissatisfaction........</f= ont></font></div></font></font></font></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_extr= a"><font><font><font><font><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-famil= y:georgia,serif;display:inline"><font><font class=3D""><br></font></font></= div></font></font></font></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><font><fon= t><font><font><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,ser= if;display:inline"><font><font class=3D""><br></font></font></div></font></= font></font></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><font><font><font><font= ><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif;display:in= line"><font><font class=3D""><font><font>Kathinka</font></font></font></fon= t></div></font></font></font></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><font>= <font><font><font><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia= ,serif;display:inline"><font><font class=3D""><br></font></font></div></fon= t></font></font></font></div></div></div> --001a1142e72015d030052fc7fdde-- --===============3548708158820522023== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KRHVuTFVHIG1h aWxpbmcgbGlzdApEdW5MVUdAbGlzdHMuZXRoZXJuYWwub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly9saXN0cy5ldGhlcm5h bC5vcmcvbGlzdGluZm8vZHVubHVnCkR1bkxVRyBXaWtpIC0gaHR0cDovL2R1bmx1Zy5rYWxsaXN0 aS5uZXQubnov --===============3548708158820522023==--