Re: Re: Test for potential programmer

On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Carlo Sogono <[email protected]> wrote:
> Thanks for all your replies.
>
> I mentioned earlier that I would like to hire someone with no IT
> background and measure their aptitude for becoming good programmers. I
> suppose I need to explain what the role is exactly.
>
> I work for Qantas and I'm looking to fill a systems analyst position
> with an aviation with an edge in law/legal stuff to learn a very high
> level programming language to work with aviation rules and regulations
> (both international and local). As you might assume, it is probably
> easier to hire someone with something like a law degree to learn
> programming....than train a computer science graduate in law!!

Congratulations on offending around two-thirds of the list by implying
that their chosen speciality is so trivial any lawyer could pick it up
in just a few months. You can count on getting unhelpful, inflammatory
responses (such as this one) from the people you've offended.

The other third won't notice, because their social skills are worse
than yours. Try hard not to be offended by their responses - they mean
as little offense as you did.


>
> So all my candidates will have ZERO programming experience and will
> not have a clue on who Knuth would be.

You're hiring the wrong kind of people. Programming isn't something
you can just pick up by reading a few books (or even going on a few
courses) - at least, it's not something you can become fluent in that
quickly. if your candidate isn't a total idiot (and none of the people
I've known who completed a law degree were *total* idiots) they'll
probably pick up the basics within a few weeks - but it takes years of
study, and years more on-the-job learning, to become fluent - in the
meantime, their goofs will be making us all laugh on
http://thedailywtf.com, for which I thank you in advance.

If you really want a single person to do this, you'd be better off looking for:
 - someone who has already studied both Law and IT - they do exist!
 -  If you can't afford that person, at least someone who has studied
Law and toyed with IT in their spare time.

Either way, someone who doesn't "have a clue on who Knuth would be" is
going to be a poor third choice - you really want someone who at least
knows who Knuth is, even if they're not intimately familiar with his
books.

>
> Piers is correct. Our priority is for the candidate to have the
> correct attitude towards technology in general. He/she has to be
> interested in learning more about IT and programming. The second most
> important would be his aptitude for it. I'm trying to look for a way
> to measure whether this person has enough aptitude to solve
> programming problems.
>
> Carlo
>
>
> On Dec 3, 12:44 pm, Daniel Pittman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Carlo Sogono <[email protected]> writes:
>> > What kinds of tests should I be giving people to measure their
>> > aptitude to become good programmers/problem solvers?
>>
>> There isn't one.  Given many years of experience interviewing and hiring
>> programmings and systems admin staff, I assure you that there is no single,
>> widely applicable, useful test that you can use for this.
>>
>> What you /can/ do is apply *specific* tests to people:
>>
>> Ask them detailed, technical questions appropriate to the level of knowledge
>> they claim for languages, tools or techniques.  This will weed out people who
>> transform "I saw a C++ book once" and claim to be experts on C++.
>>
>> Ask them to write some code in the language they will be working with in front
>> of you, so they can't cheat.  Use a whiteboard, or pen-and-paper, for this.
>> Make sure that it isn't complete junk.
>>
>> This weeds out the people who claim to be programmers, but can't actually
>> manage correct syntax, or recall anything about the language at all.
>>
>> > I work in a really specialised field and it is actually better to hire
>> > someone who has experience in this field then train them to do a
>> > programming than hire a programmer to learn the business.
>>
>> I assume you are speaking form past experience, where you have done both of
>> these things, and judged the results over *multiple* people in both cases.[1]
>>
>> Otherwise, this sounds like a dangerous assumption to me; generally, my
>> experience is that you are better off hiring the best people regardless of
>> background, provided they can do the job.
>>
>> > Are IQ tests enough?
>>
>> Absolutely, under no circumstances, let yourself be fooled into thinking these
>> show you anything except the most basic anything, and keep in mind that they
>> are almost all heavily culturally biased.
>>
>> Certainly, they are useless for the traits you are looking for.
>>
>> > Or should I be looking for something else?
>>
>> Yes: look for personal recommendations, and people who maintain a good public
>> presence on the Internet.  Both of those give you insight into the character
>> and abilities of the people you are looking to hire.
>>
>> Review code that people have written previously[2], or other works they have
>> created.  Ensure these show actual skill and talent before you bring them in.
>>
>> Look for claims like "I contributed significant code to GNU Grep", which you
>> can actually check for factual accuracy[3], and then check them.  Which is
>> educational. :)
>>
>> Mostly, though, personal recommendation is the way you want to hire.  You get
>> a much, much harder judge between you and the candidate[4], from someone with
>> extensive personal knowledge of the candidate, and from someone with extensive
>> knowledge of the business.
>>
>>         Daniel
>>
>> Footnotes:
>> [1]  To reduce the chances that, for example, you just got two dud
>>      programmers, but one or two really sharp non-programmers, for example.
>>
>> [2]  I doubt that non-programmers can be trained to write code better than
>>      *good* programmers can be trained in a new language / business, although
>>      a good non-programmer is going to be better than a bad programmer.
>>
>> [3]  ...and, as a hint to those people who have sent me resumés with claims
>>      like this before: yes, I /do/ actually check that.  GNU keep good
>>      records, so either your contribution was so insignificant they didn't
>>      need to record it, or predates records kept back to the '80s.[5]
>>
>> [4]  ...well, unless you have employed someone who is rather an idiot, and is
>>      willing to make themselves look awful by recommending someone who can't
>>      do the job.
>>
>> [5]  ...and one day I hope to actually get a resumé that claims this, and
>>      where the name of the person /does/ show up in the changelogs.
>>
>> --
>> ✣ Daniel Pittman            ✉ [email protected]            ☎ +61 401 155 707
>>                ♽ made with 100 percent post-consumer electrons
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