RE: Markup / CSS / XHTML
Steve Green <[email protected]> Mon, 8 Jun 2020 18:01:38 +0000
| Newsgroups | gmane.org.w3c.accessibility.general |
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--_000_DB8PR09MB402552FC639C9A4982EF007DC7850DB8PR09MB4025eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Judy, Whoever wrote those statements is seriously over-stretching their case. Mos= t of what they have written is either out of date or plain wrong. My views = are: 1. WCAG 1.0 used to require that the HTML and CSS validated without erro= rs, but this requirement was dropped in WCAG 2.0, which only requires that = "elements have complete start and end tags, elements are nested according t= o their specifications, elements do not contain duplicate attributes, and a= ny IDs are unique, except where the specifications allow these features". This means you don't need to validate the CSS at all. You do need to valida= te the HTML, but you need to filter the results to only display the relevan= t ones. You can get a bookmarklet that does this from https://dotjay.github= .io/wcag-parsing-filter/bookmarklet/. When you do this on your website, the= re is only one relevant error, which is a stray closing tag. I have looked = at the code, and in this case browsers will ignore it, so it actually has z= ero impact in practice. I would never argue against fixing the code so it validates, but almost non= e of your errors constitute a WCAG non-conformance. If the errors have any = impact at all, they are likely to cause browser compatibility issues rather= than accessibility ones. 2. The presence of xmlns=3D"https://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/" in the <html= > element does not mean the website is claiming to use the XHTML doctype. T= he website is using HTML5 as you would expect. I am no expert on namespaces= , but the page at https://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/ says that "The namespace n= ame http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml is intended for use in various specificati= ons such as...HTML5". 3. The statement is completely untrue. The HTML specification has always= stated that pages do not have to validate and that browsers can do what th= ey like if they encounter invalid code. They may choose to ignore that part= icular piece of code, but they often attempt to fix it by taking a guess at= what the author intended. I would challenge whoever wrote that statement to provide any example (even= one they have fabricated) where a browser ignores valid CSS. 4. In WCAG 1.0 it was a requirement that pages were usable without CSS, = but this requirement was dropped in WCAG 2.0. in order to claim conformance= with WCAG 2.0 or 2.1, the website must only rely on "accessibility support= ed" technologies. CSS is an accessibility supported technology, so conforma= nt websites are allowed to rely on it. See https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTAND= ING-WCAG20/conformance.html#uc-accessibility-support-head 5. From a WCAG conformance perspective, it is irrelevant whether browser= s and screen readers exist that do not work with the Durham.ca website. Fro= m a validation perspective, the only requirement is that the website uses a= ccessibility supported technologies (which include HTML and CSS) and that c= ertain types of HTML validation errors do not occur. If users choose to use= browsers and screen readers that do not work with a WCAG conformant websit= e, that is not the website owner's problem. Also, I cannot find anything in AODA that requires anything other than conf= ormance with WCAG 2.1 level AA. The statement that "these problems are caus= ing Durham.ca to be non-compliant with AODA" is not true in my opinion (or = it will not be true when the one spurious closing tag is removed, which in = any case is not having any effect on anything). 6. http-equiv=3D"Content-Style-Type" and http-equiv=3D"Content-Script-Ty= pe" do not exist in HTML5, so they can indeed be removed. However, that won= 't actually fix anything because browsers will already be ignoring them. Steve Green Managing Director Test Partners Ltd From: Judy Christianson <[email protected]> Sent: 03 March 2020 16:12 To: [email protected] Subject: Markup / CSS / XHTML Hi, I am not a web developer, but I am working with the accessibility of docume= nt. Someone has commented on the accessibility of our website and wondered = if I could get input and feedback from you regarding the comments received.= What I am looking for is the validity of the six statements below and what= you would suggest for fixes if you are able to. The website was developed = by a third party service provider. Comments received are listed below: 1. WCAG 2.0 indicates that websites must have correctly formed markup an= d CSS, but testing today (2020-02-18) with W3C's markup and CSS validators,= I see a total of 447 errors and warnings: Markup: https://validator.w3.org/nu/?doc=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.durham.ca%2Fen= %2Findex.aspx CSS: https://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.= durham.ca%2Fen%2Findex.aspx 2. At the top of Durham.ca's markup, Durham.ca's webmaster has declared = "http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" as the website's XML namespace, which means = that Durham.ca is claiming compliance with W3C's XHTML standard, even thoug= h it isn't. W3C created the XHTML standard in 1999, and finalized it in ea= rly 2000, over seventeen years before Durham.ca was revamped in late 2017. = XHTML also predates the existence of Durham.ca, which wasn't created until= 2007 as the replacement for Durham.on.ca. 3. CSS errors can cause significant usability problems in web browsers a= nd in screen readers that can parse CSS. If such software/hardware is unab= le to parse a website's CSS due to errors in the website's CSS, then it wil= l typically respond by not using any of the website's CSS to render its pag= es. 4. Mozilla Firefox is a web browser with a feature that allows a user to= temporarily display a website without the website's CSS. If you use Mozil= la Firefox to access Durham.ca, and then go to "View" menu -> "Page Style" = -> "No Style", you'll discover that Durham.ca would be extremely difficult = to use without CSS. You can enable CSS again by going to "View" menu -> "P= age Style" -> "Basic Page Style". 5. While the web browsers and screen readers that Durham.ca's webmaster = used to test Durham.ca may have been designed to work around Durham.ca's ma= rkup and CSS problems, I'm not aware of any standards that require all web = browsers and screen readers to do this, and there's no guarantee that the m= ost popular web browsers and screen readers will continue to tolerate these= problems indefinitely.... More importantly, these problems are causing Du= rham.ca to be non-compliant with AODA. 6. Fortunately, all these problems can be corrected fairly easily. For = example, Durham.ca's "meta" markup elements with attributes http-equiv=3D"C= ontent-Style-Type" and http-equiv=3D"Content-Script-Type" are obsolete vest= iges from HTML 4 that don't exist in XHTML, so Durham.ca's webmaster could = eliminate two markup errors by simply removing these two elements. Judy Christianson THIS MESSAGE IS FOR THE USE OF THE INTENDED RECIPIENT(S) ONLY AND MAY CONTA= IN INFORMATION THAT IS PRIVILEGED, PROPRIETARY, CONFIDENTIAL, AND/OR EXEMPT= FROM DISCLOSURE UNDER ANY RELEVANT PRIVACY LEGISLATION. No rights to any p= rivilege have been waived. If you are not the intended recipient, you are h= ereby notified that any review, re-transmission, dissemination, distributio= n, copying, conversion to hard copy, taking of action in reliance on or oth= er use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you are not the int= ended recipient and have received this message in error, please notify me b= y return e-mail and delete or destroy all copies of this message. --_000_DB8PR09MB402552FC639C9A4982EF007DC7850DB8PR09MB4025eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micr= osoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:x=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:excel" xmlns:m=3D"http://schema= s.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html= 40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"= > <meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"> <style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin-top:12.0pt; 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text-indent:-.25in;} @list l2:level8 {mso-level-number-format:alpha-lower; mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-.25in;} @list l2:level9 {mso-level-number-format:roman-lower; mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:right; text-indent:-9.0pt;} ol {margin-bottom:0in;} ul {margin-bottom:0in;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> </head> <body lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"> <div class=3D"WordSection1"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hi Judy,<o:p></o:p></spa= n></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Whoever wrote those stat= ements is seriously over-stretching their case. Most of what they have writ= ten is either out of date or plain wrong. My views are:<o:p></o:p></span></p> <ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"1"> <li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 = lfo4"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-= serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">WCAG 1.0 used to require that the HTML an= d CSS validated without errors, but this requirement was dropped in WCAG 2.0, which only requires that “elements have com= plete start and end tags, elements are nested according to their specificat= ions, elements do not contain duplicate attributes, and any IDs are unique,= except where the specifications allow these features”.<br> <br> This means you don’t need to validate the CSS at all. You do need to = validate the HTML, but you need to filter the results to only display the r= elevant ones. You can get a bookmarklet that does this from <a href=3D"https://dotjay.github.io/wcag-parsing-filter/bookmarklet/">https= ://dotjay.github.io/wcag-parsing-filter/bookmarklet/</a>. When you do this = on your website, there is only one relevant error, which is a stray closing= tag. I have looked at the code, and in this case browsers will ignore it, so it actually has zero impact in pr= actice.<br> <br> I would never argue against fixing the code so it validates, but almost non= e of your errors constitute a WCAG non-conformance. If the errors have any = impact at all, they are likely to cause browser compatibility issues rather= than accessibility ones.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagra= ph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4"><span style=3D"font-s= ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:= EN-US">The presence of xmlns=3D”<a href=3D"https://www.w3.org/1999/xh= tml/">https://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/</a>” in the <html> element does not mean the website is claiming to use t= he XHTML doctype. The website is using HTML5 as you would expect. I am no e= xpert on namespaces, but the page at <a href=3D"https://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/">https://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/</= a> says that “The namespace name http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml is inte= nded for use in various specifications such as…HTML5”.<o:p></o:= p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-l= ist:l0 level1 lfo4"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calib= ri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The statement is completely= untrue. The HTML specification has always stated that pages do not have to validate and that browsers can do what they like if they encou= nter invalid code. They may choose to ignore that particular piece of code,= but they often attempt to fix it by taking a guess at what the author inte= nded.<br> <br> I would challenge whoever wrote that statement to provide any example (even= one they have fabricated) where a browser ignores valid CSS.<o:p></o:p></s= pan></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l= 0 level1 lfo4"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri&qu= ot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">In WCAG 1.0 it was a requirement= that pages were usable without CSS, but this requirement was dropped in WCAG 2.0. in order to claim conformance with WCAG 2.0 or 2.= 1, the website must only rely on “accessibility supported” tech= nologies. CSS is an accessibility supported technology, so conformant websi= tes are allowed to rely on it. See <a href=3D"https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/conformance.html#uc-a= ccessibility-support-head"> https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/conformance.html#uc-accessibilit= y-support-head</a><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" sty= le=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4"><span style=3D"font-size:11.= 0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">= From a WCAG conformance perspective, it is irrelevant whether browsers and = screen readers exist that do not work with the Durham.ca website. From a validation persp= ective, the only requirement is that the website uses accessibility support= ed technologies (which include HTML and CSS) and that certain types of HTML= validation errors do not occur. If users choose to use browsers and screen readers that do not work with a= WCAG conformant website, that is not the website owner’s problem.<br= > <br> Also, I cannot find anything in AODA that requires anything other than conf= ormance with WCAG 2.1 level AA. The statement that “these problems ar= e causing Durham.ca to be non-compliant with AODA” is not true in my = opinion (or it will not be true when the one spurious closing tag is removed, which in any case is not having any effec= t on anything).<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style= =3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0p= t;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">ht= tp-equiv=3D"Content-Style-Type" and http-equiv=3D"Content-Sc= ript-Type" do not exist in HTML5, so they can indeed be removed. However, that won’t actually fix anyt= hing because browsers will already be ignoring them.<o:p></o:p></span></li>= </ol> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in"><span style=3D"font-size:11= .0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></= p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in"><span style=3D"font-size:11= .0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"= >Steve Green<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in"><span style=3D"font-size:11= .0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"= >Managing Director<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in"><span style=3D"font-size:11= .0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"= >Test Partners Ltd<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span>= </p> <div> <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in 0in"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty= le=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</s= pan></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif"> Judy Christianson <[email protected]&= gt; <br> <b>Sent:</b> 03 March 2020 16:12<br> <b>To:</b> [email protected]<br> <b>Subject:</b> Markup / CSS / XHTML <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I am not a web developer, but I= am working with the accessibility of document. Someone has commented on th= e accessibility of our website and wondered if I could get input and feedba= ck from you regarding the comments received. What I am looking for is the validity of the six statements below and what= you would suggest for fixes if you are able to. The website was developed = by a third party service provider.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Comments received are listed be= low:<o:p></o:p></span></p> <ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"1"> <li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 = lfo3"><span lang=3D"EN-US">WCAG 2.0 indicates that websites must have corre= ctly formed markup and CSS, but testing today (2020-02-18) with W3C's marku= p and CSS validators, I see a total of 447 errors and warnings:<br> <br> Markup: </span><span lang=3D"EN-CA"><a href=3D"https://validator.w3.org/nu/= ?doc=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.durham.ca%2Fen%2Findex.aspx"><span lang=3D"EN-US">= https://validator.w3.org/nu/?doc=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.durham.ca%2Fen%2Findex= .aspx</span></a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br> CSS: </span><span lang=3D"EN-CA"><a href=3D"https://jigsaw.w3.org/css-valid= ator/validator?uri=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.durham.ca%2Fen%2Findex.aspx"><span l= ang=3D"EN-US">https://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=3Dhttps%3A%= 2F%2Fwww.durham.ca%2Fen%2Findex.aspx</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></li><li c= lass=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3"= ><span lang=3D"EN-US">At the top of Durham.ca's markup, Durham.ca's webmast= er has declared "</span><span lang=3D"EN-CA"><a href=3D"http://www.w3.= org/1999/xhtml"><span lang=3D"EN-US">http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml</span></a= ></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">" as the website's XML namespace, which means that Durham.ca is claiming com= pliance with W3C's XHTML standard, even though it isn't. W3C created = the XHTML standard in 1999, and finalized it in early 2000, over seventeen = years before Durham.ca was revamped in late 2017. XHTML also predates the existence of Durham.ca, which was= n't created until 2007 as the replacement for Durham.on.ca.</span><span lan= g=3D"EN-CA"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"= margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3"><span lang=3D"EN-US">CSS errors ca= n cause significant usability problems in web browsers and in screen reader= s that can parse CSS. If such software/hardware is unable to parse a = website's CSS due to errors in the website's CSS, then it will typically respond by = not using any of the website's CSS to render its pages.</span><span lang=3D= "EN-CA"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"marg= in-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Mozilla Firefox i= s a web browser with a feature that allows a user to temporarily display a = website without the website's CSS. If you use Mozilla Firefox to acce= ss Durham.ca, and then go to "View" menu -> "Page Style&quo= t; -> "No Style", you'll discover that Durham.ca would be extr= emely difficult to use without CSS. You can enable CSS again by going= to "View" menu -> "Page Style" -> "Basic Pa= ge Style".</span><span lang=3D"EN-CA"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class= =3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3"><sp= an lang=3D"EN-US">While the web browsers and screen readers that Durham.ca'= s webmaster used to test Durham.ca may have been designed to work around Du= rham.ca's markup and CSS problems, I'm not aware of any standards that require all web browsers and screen re= aders to do this, and there's no guarantee that the most popular web browse= rs and screen readers will continue to tolerate these problems indefinitely= .... More importantly, these problems are causing Durham.ca to be non-compliant with AODA.</span><span lang=3D"E= N-CA"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin= -bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3"> <span lang=3D"EN-US">Fortunately, all these problems can be corrected fairl= y easily. For example, Durham.ca's "meta" markup elements w= ith attributes http-equiv=3D"Content-Style-Type" and http-equiv= =3D"Content-Script-Type" are obsolete vestiges from HTML 4 that d= on't exist in XHTML, so Durham.ca's webmaster could eliminate two markup errors= by simply removing these two elements.</span><span lang=3D"EN-CA"><o:p></o= :p></span></li></ol> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in"><span lang=3D"EN-CA">Judy C= hristianson</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:0in"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style= =3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">THIS MESSA= GE IS FOR THE USE OF THE INTENDED RECIPIENT(S) ONLY AND MAY CONTAIN INFORMA= TION THAT IS PRIVILEGED, PROPRIETARY, CONFIDENTIAL, AND/OR EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE UNDER ANY RELEVANT PRIVACY LEGISLATION. No r= ights to any privilege have been waived. If you are not the intended recipi= ent, you are hereby notified that any review, re-transmission, disseminatio= n, distribution, copying, conversion to hard copy, taking of action in reliance on or other use of this communi= cation is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient and ha= ve received this message in error, please notify me by return e-mail and de= lete or destroy all copies of this message. <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </body> </html> --_000_DB8PR09MB402552FC639C9A4982EF007DC7850DB8PR09MB4025eurp_--