Re: ReSpec and how it gets used
Shane McCarron <[email protected]> Wed, 8 Jun 2016 18:27:57 -0500
| Newsgroups | gmane.org.w3c.specifications |
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| Message-ID | <CAJdbnODCaADzJpbTpvzTjVE3ZQ5wKx3dbO5+M9xUc0hm0Y3eNg@mail.gmail.com> |
--94eb2c0934c2a177640534cca92f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was aware that you were having issues Matt. I was not aware they were quite this dire. Can you send us / me the URI to your rawgit tree so I can figure out what the respec issue is? As far as I know the ARIA trees were fixed to work with the current ReSpec a couple of weeks ago. As to your suggestions.... the approach I had wanted to take was to set aria-busy to true on the body element until respec and any extensions were complete. ReSpec added a Promise that should facilitate this. Do you think this approach would work? On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 5:47 PM, Matt King <[email protected]> wrote: > I don't know if this is the right thread for this comment ... if not, fee= l > free to let me know. > > I am an editor and I rely on the JAWS screen reader. Because Firefox has > to be updating is accessibility tree as respect runs, it takes a really > long time to run. It is rare that I am able to start reading a branch in > rawgit in under a minute. The ARIA spec takes up to 2 minutes before I ca= n > read it. Then, sometimes, like today, things are very broken. Today, none > of the roles, states, or property sections have headings or permalinks. I > don't know if that is due to a new respec bug or a failure of respect to > run completely, or a defect in my spec text. Today, I know it is not a > defect in my text because I haven't changed it since it last worked. > > I am wondering if there is a better way for respect to work. Is there a > way to make all the respec changes without doing it on the live DOM and > then replace the entire DOM or something like that. Content hidden with > display none is left out of the AX tree, so maybe the whole DOM could be > hidden while the processing is occurring ... maybe not great for everyone= , > but at least you would all have an experience that is more like mine > <smile>. > > Matt King > > -----Original Message----- > From: Marcos Caceres [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2016 2:47 AM > To: Shane McCarron <[email protected]> > Cc: Michiel Bijl <[email protected]>; spec-prod <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: ReSpec and how it gets used > > On June 8, 2016 at 5:37:19 AM, Shane McCarron ([email protected]) wrote: > > Comments in line > > > > On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:11 PM, Markus Lanthaler > > wrote: > > > > > > > > >> browser is over 2 years old now, and has been superseded by Edge). > > > >> Either kindly ask your users to switch to Edge > > > > > > Well, that might be tricky for lots of users as it also requires an > > > OS update. > > > > > > > Agreed. Moreover, this is not an option for many users (see below). > > But this is an option for everyone who writes specs. I've never met anyon= e > at the w3c who is in this situation (or can't use another browser). > > > > >> or use a more modern browser ... alternatively, please publish > > > >> the ReSpec output instead, which should work on any browser going > > > >> back to IE6. > > > > > > I'm not going to ask to start supporting IE11 again but what browser > > > support do you aim for? Only the absolute latest version? IE11 still > > > seems to have a considerable market share... > > > > > > > > > We have no clear guidelines on this My inclination is to never break > > faith with backward compatibility unless maintaining it forces a > > reduction in primary function. I suspect we have made a mistake > > removing whatever polyfill enabled IE11 support. > > There was nothing removed. Just stuff got added. IE11 is not maintained, > so it breaks because it's been left behind by the Web. > > > And while I agree with some other > > commenters that publishing static versions is a better end user > > experience anyway, the reality is that many working groups are > > developing specs using ReSpec, and those groups don't want to take the > > time to generate static versions - in particular for their "Editor's > > Draft"s. So to the extent that we want people to be able to readily > > review specs as they are in development, we need to take this into > consideration. > > Agree. This is a long process - but we need to work as a community to get > there. > > > Note that I am not talking about the people writing the specs. I > > assume they are working with relatively modern user agents. They are > > typically geeks like us. But their constituents are often less > > tech-savvy. The Web Payments community, for example, has A LOT of > > bankers in it. Conservative organizations tend to lock down software > > and only upgrade rarely, and then after acceptance testing. But they > > are nonetheless members of the W3C, and should be able to review and > comment on our specs. > > Sure, and again the best way to serve them is to give them generated > snapshots (even of EDs). > > > > > > > > As a reader of ReSpec'd specs, I'd highly appreciate it if more > > > > people published the generated output instead of the sources. It > > > > avoids the flash-of-unprocessed-content and subsequent > > > > anchor-jumping, and it works better in the tooling infrastructure. > > > > > > The thing I like most about ReSpec is that it doesn't need any > > > "compilation" step. It's not perfect but for most use cases it works > > > well enough. > > > > > > > > Yes. It is what drew many of us to ReSpec. The recent instability has > > made it a much less desirable platform. My groups have spent a lot of > > time trying to resolve ReSpec introduced problems or learning new > > requirements as features change. Worse yet, various changes have > > broken the tool chain that enabled the automated generation of "TR" > > versions of specs or otherwise made it impossible to publish without > hand-editing. > > This is no different to Bikeshed or Anolis or any other piece of software= . > Software breaks, things change. We patch stuff quickly and move on. > =C2=AF\_(=E3=83=84)_/=C2=AF > > > As a maintainer of ReSpec, I am appalled. As a user, I am frustrated. > > As an advocate, I am finding it a hard product to recommend. > > It's open source, you are free to leave, fork, use BikeShed, whatever > =C2=AF\_(=E3=83=84)_/=C2=AF. > > I like the improvements I've made - and sure, there was a little pain for > a tiny number of people for maybe a couple of hours, but whatever. > At least it's actually getting maintained and updated now - and it's > vastly better. > > A year ago, it was "stable" in the sense that it was rotting away because > no one was spending any time improving it after Robin left. > That's not stability: that's just bit rot. > > > Perhaps the solution is to make all the (named) versions available so > > that document developers can choose the one that works well for them > > and their users? Or identify a stable version and call that official, > > then leave the "development" bleeding-edge that people can use or not. > > That's what we do today. We develop in branches, which go to "develop", > which then get released into "gh-pages". > > > Do a migration to > > stable periodically after substantial testing. I don't know. But > > something needs to change. Right now I see the best case as people > > forking ReSpec so they have something they can rely upon. I see the > > worst case as them abandoning the platform. Both of these would be a > failure. > > I think you are totally over dramatizing things. Little bugs are no big > deal. Most people haven't noticed that we've done like 40+ releases in th= e > last year. > > > --=20 Shane McCarron Projects Manager, Spec-Ops --94eb2c0934c2a177640534cca92f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">I was aware that you were having issues Matt.=C2=A0 I was = not aware they were quite this dire.=C2=A0 Can you send us / me the URI to = your rawgit tree so I can figure out what the respec issue is?=C2=A0 As far= as I know the ARIA trees were fixed to work with the current ReSpec a coup= le of weeks ago.<div><br></div><div>As to your suggestions.... =C2=A0the ap= proach I had wanted to take was to set aria-busy to true on the body elemen= t until respec and any extensions were complete.=C2=A0 ReSpec added a Promi= se that should facilitate this.=C2=A0 Do you think this approach would work= ?</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W= ed, Jun 8, 2016 at 5:47 PM, Matt King <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mail= to:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>></= span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e= x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I don't know if this is = the right thread for this comment ... if not, feel free to let me know.<br> <br> I am an editor and I rely on the JAWS screen reader. Because Firefox has to= be updating is accessibility tree as respect runs, it takes a really long = time to run. It is rare that I am able to start reading a branch in rawgit = in under a minute. The ARIA spec takes up to 2 minutes before I can read it= . Then, sometimes, like today, things are very broken. Today, none of the r= oles, states, or property sections have headings or permalinks. I don't= know if that is due to a new respec bug or a failure of respect to run com= pletely, or a defect in my spec text. Today, I know it is not a defect in m= y text because I haven't changed it since it last worked.<br> <br> I am wondering if there is a better way for respect to work. Is there a way= to make all the respec changes without doing it on the live DOM and then r= eplace the entire DOM or something like that. Content hidden with display n= one is left out of the AX tree, so maybe the whole DOM could be hidden whil= e the processing is occurring ... maybe not great for everyone, but at leas= t you would all have an experience that is more like mine <smile>.<br= > <span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br> Matt King<br> </font></span><span class=3D"im HOEnZb"><br> -----Original Message-----<br> From: Marcos Caceres [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">w3c@marcosc= .com</a>]<br> </span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 201= 6 2:47 AM<br> To: Shane McCarron <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">shane@spec-ops.= io</a>><br> Cc: Michiel Bijl <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]= </a>>; spec-prod <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]= g</a>><br> Subject: Re: ReSpec and how it gets used<br> <br> On June 8, 2016 at 5:37:19 AM, Shane McCarron (<a href=3D"mailto:shane@spec= -ops.io">[email protected]</a>) wrote:<br> > Comments in line<br> ><br> > On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:11 PM, Markus Lanthaler<br> > wrote:<br> ><br> > ><br> > > >> browser is over 2 years old now, and has been superseded= by Edge).<br> > > >> Either kindly ask your users to switch to Edge<br> > ><br> > > Well, that might be tricky for lots of users as it also requires = an<br> > > OS update.<br> > ><br> ><br> > Agreed. Moreover, this is not an option for many users (see below).<br= > <br> But this is an option for everyone who writes specs. I've never met any= one at the w3c who is in this situation (or can't use another browser).= <br> <br> > > >> or use a more modern browser ... alternatively, please p= ublish<br> > > >> the ReSpec output instead, which should work on any brow= ser going<br> > > >> back to IE6.<br> > ><br> > > I'm not going to ask to start supporting IE11 again but what = browser<br> > > support do you aim for? Only the absolute latest version? IE11 st= ill<br> > > seems to have a considerable market share...<br> > ><br> ><br> ><br> > We have no clear guidelines on this My inclination is to never break<b= r> > faith with backward compatibility unless maintaining it forces a<br> > reduction in primary function. I suspect we have made a mistake<br> > removing whatever polyfill enabled IE11 support.<br> <br> There was nothing removed. Just stuff got added. IE11 is not maintained, so= it breaks because it's been left behind by the Web.<br> <br> > And while I agree with some other<br> > commenters that publishing static versions is a better end user<br> > experience anyway, the reality is that many working groups are<br> > developing specs using ReSpec, and those groups don't want to take= the<br> > time to generate static versions - in particular for their "Edito= r's<br> > Draft"s. So to the extent that we want people to be able to readi= ly<br> > review specs as they are in development, we need to take this into con= sideration.<br> <br> Agree. This is a long process - but we need to work as a community to get t= here.<br> <br> > Note that I am not talking about the people writing the specs. I<br> > assume they are working with relatively modern user agents. They are<b= r> > typically geeks like us. But their constituents are often less<br> > tech-savvy. The Web Payments community, for example, has A LOT of<br> > bankers in it. Conservative organizations tend to lock down software<b= r> > and only upgrade rarely, and then after acceptance testing. But they<b= r> > are nonetheless members of the W3C, and should be able to review and c= omment on our specs.<br> <br> Sure, and again the best way to serve them is to give them generated snapsh= ots (even of EDs).<br> <br> > ><br> > > > As a reader of ReSpec'd specs, I'd highly appreciate= it if more<br> > > > people published the generated output instead of the sources= . It<br> > > > avoids the flash-of-unprocessed-content and subsequent<br> > > > anchor-jumping, and it works better in the tooling infrastru= cture.<br> > ><br> > > The thing I like most about ReSpec is that it doesn't need an= y<br> > > "compilation" step. It's not perfect but for most u= se cases it works<br> > > well enough.<br> > ><br> > ><br> > Yes. It is what drew many of us to ReSpec. The recent instability has<= br> > made it a much less desirable platform. My groups have spent a lot of<= br> > time trying to resolve ReSpec introduced problems or learning new<br> > requirements as features change. Worse yet, various changes have<br> > broken the tool chain that enabled the automated generation of "T= R"<br> > versions of specs or otherwise made it impossible to publish without h= and-editing.<br> <br> This is no different to Bikeshed or Anolis or any other piece of software. = Software breaks, things change. We patch stuff quickly and move on.<br> =C2=AF\_(=E3=83=84)_/=C2=AF<br> <br> > As a maintainer of ReSpec, I am appalled. As a user, I am frustrated.<= br> > As an advocate, I am finding it a hard product to recommend.<br> <br> It's open source, you are free to leave, fork, use BikeShed, whatever<b= r> =C2=AF\_(=E3=83=84)_/=C2=AF.<br> <br> I like the improvements I've made - and sure, there was a little pain f= or a tiny number of people for maybe a couple of hours, but whatever.<br> At least it's actually getting maintained and updated now - and it'= s vastly better.<br> <br> A year ago, it was "stable" in the sense that it was rotting away= because no one was spending any time improving it after Robin left.<br> That's not stability: that's just bit rot.<br> <br> > Perhaps the solution is to make all the (named) versions available so<= br> > that document developers can choose the one that works well for them<b= r> > and their users? Or identify a stable version and call that official,<= br> > then leave the "development" bleeding-edge that people can u= se or not.<br> <br> That's what we do today. We develop in branches, which go to "deve= lop", which then get released into "gh-pages".<br> <br> >=C2=A0 Do a migration to<br> > stable periodically after substantial testing. I don't know. But<b= r> > something needs to change. Right now I see the best case as people<br> > forking ReSpec so they have something they can rely upon. I see the<br= > > worst case as them abandoning the platform. Both of these would be a f= ailure.<br> <br> I think you are totally over dramatizing things. Little bugs are no big dea= l. Most people haven't noticed that we've done like 40+ releases in= the last year.<br> <br> <br> </div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>= <div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir= =3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Shane McCarron<div>Projects Manager, Spec-Op= s</div></div></div></div></div> </div> --94eb2c0934c2a177640534cca92f--