Re: removing keygen from HTML

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Hi Folks - the TAG (in the person of Travis) has written on this topic:

https://w3ctag.github.io/client-certificates/#replacing-keygen

As noted, it represents the rough consensus of the TAG on this issue.

Dan

On Tue, 31 May 2016 at 13:33 Eric Mill <[email protected]> wrote:

> The original email said: "Since the TAG, or its members, appear to have
> opinions about our spec, we'd be grateful to hear them." It'd be most
> productive for this thread's discussion to at least be initiated by a
> member of the TAG.
>
> -- Eric
>
> On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 8:12 AM, Harry Halpin <[email protected]> wrote=
:
>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 1:40 AM, Reto Gm=C3=BCr <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 31 May 2016, at 10:04, Harry Halpin wrote:
>>>
>>> I do not know anyone from the cryptographic or security community that
>>> would support keeping <keygen>. Indeed, the default response from the
>>> security/crypto community would be to drop <keygen> due to legacy usage=
 of
>>> MD5 and violation of security boundaries (SOP).
>>>
>>> That would also be my response if I was employed by the NSA and wanted
>>> to prevent technologies that allow user controlled strong cryptography =
and
>>> decentralized networks of trust (as enabled by webId).
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Reto,
>>
>> That was both an idiotic and offensive statement. Can you explain how
>> amateur crypto and home-brewed protocols that no-one in the security or
>> crypto community reviewed or supports is the way to fight the NSA?
>>
>> Myself and many others support strong cryptography and decentralized
>> networks of trust, and fully support that effort. Rather than attribute =
the
>> use of broken technology to protocols to NSA, it's also possibly due to
>> lack of education.
>>
>> Thus, you may want to look at:
>>
>> 1) MD5 security issues are well-known and documented:
>> http://merlot.usc.edu/csac-f06/papers/Wang05a.pdf
>>
>> 2) In practice, the WebID+TLS community should use modern crypto and the
>> Web Security model rather than attempt to build on top of an broken,
>> obscure, and unstandardised browser behaviour. If you want to fight the =
NSA
>> by building new protocols on the Web, I recommend taking a class that
>> explains how Web security works. Videos are available from this MIT cour=
se
>> explain modern Web Security, including the Same Origin Policy:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D_1C62Twf0vs
>>
>> Hopefully others will be more reasonable, but you may wish to familiariz=
e
>> yourself with this thread rather than endlessly repeat it.
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!topic/blink-dev/pX5NbX0=
Xack
>>
>> Note that we're just modernizing with W3C Web Authentication secure and
>> modern cryptographic one-factor authentication to use modern primitives =
and
>> respect user privacy. You are more than welcome to join the Working Grou=
p
>> as an Invited Expert, although an expert should be aware of the basics o=
f
>> security.
>>
>> Although there are a number of inaccuracies in this report in terms of
>> WebCrypto, it's pretty clear Web Authentication matches all requirements=
 in
>> Section 6 here:
>> http://w3ctag.github.io/client-certificates/
>>
>> Thus, it makes sense to hold off and deprecate <keygen> after the fall o=
f
>> this year, when Web Authentication is deployed in browsers. As stated
>> earlier, the "WebID" community can simply use Web Authentication rather
>> than client certs for authentication.
>>
>> That being said, since the only browser that supports <keygen> currently
>> is Mozilla, who plans to deprecate regardless of what the TAG says, then=
 it
>> can also be justified to remove from the standard today as there is no
>> interoperability.
>>
>>    cheers,
>>        harry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Reto
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> konklone.com | @konklone <https://twitter.com/konklone>
>

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<div style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">Hi Folks - the TAG (in the person of Tr=
avis) has written on this topic:<br><br><a href=3D"https://w3ctag.github.io=
/client-certificates/#replacing-keygen">https://w3ctag.github.io/client-cer=
tificates/#replacing-keygen</a> <br><br>As noted, it represents the rough c=
onsensus of the TAG on this issue.<br><br>Dan</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, 31 May 2016 at 13:33 Eric Mill &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">The original email said: &quot=
;Since the TAG, or its members, appear to have opinions about our spec, we&=
#39;d be grateful to hear them.&quot; It&#39;d be most productive for this =
thread&#39;s discussion to at least be initiated by a member of the TAG.<di=
v><br></div><div>-- Eric</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"></div></div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue=
, May 31, 2016 at 8:12 AM, Harry Halpin <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>&gt;</sp=
an> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span>On Tue, May 31, 2016=
 at 1:40 AM, Reto Gm=C3=BCr <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:reto@gm=
uer.ch" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>




<div><span><div>On Tue, 31 May 2016, at 10:04, Harry Halpin wrote:<br></div=
>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>I do not know any=
one from the cryptographic or security community that would support keeping=
 &lt;keygen&gt;. Indeed, the default response from the security/crypto comm=
unity would be to drop &lt;keygen&gt; due to legacy usage of MD5 and violat=
ion of security boundaries (SOP). <br></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></span><div>That would also be my response if I was employed b=
y the NSA and wanted to prevent technologies that allow user controlled str=
ong cryptography and decentralized networks of trust (as enabled by webId).=
<br></div>
<div>=C2=A0<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>Reto,<br=
><br></div><div>That was both an idiotic and offensive statement. Can you e=
xplain how amateur crypto and home-brewed protocols that no-one in the secu=
rity or crypto community reviewed or supports is the way to fight the NSA?<=
br><br></div><div>Myself and many others support strong cryptography and de=
centralized networks of trust, and fully support that effort. Rather than a=
ttribute the use of broken technology to protocols to NSA, it&#39;s also po=
ssibly due to lack of education. <br><br>Thus, you may want to look at:<br>=
</div><div><br>1) MD5 security issues are well-known and documented:<br><a =
href=3D"http://merlot.usc.edu/csac-f06/papers/Wang05a.pdf" target=3D"_blank=
">http://merlot.usc.edu/csac-f06/papers/Wang05a.pdf</a><br><br></div><div>2=
) In practice, the WebID+TLS community should use modern crypto and the Web=
 Security model rather than attempt to build on top of an broken, obscure, =
and unstandardised browser behaviour. If you want to fight the NSA by build=
ing new protocols on the Web, I recommend taking a class that explains how =
Web security works. Videos are available from this MIT course explain moder=
n Web Security, including the Same Origin Policy:<br><a href=3D"https://www=
.youtube.com/watch?v=3D_1C62Twf0vs" target=3D"_blank">https://www.youtube.c=
om/watch?v=3D_1C62Twf0vs</a><br><br>Hopefully others will be more reasonabl=
e, but you may wish to familiarize yourself with this thread rather than en=
dlessly repeat it. <br><a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/=
forum/#!topic/blink-dev/pX5NbX0Xack" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.googl=
e.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!topic/blink-dev/pX5NbX0Xack</a><br><br></div><=
div>Note that we&#39;re just modernizing with W3C Web Authentication secure=
 and modern cryptographic one-factor authentication to use modern primitive=
s and respect user privacy. You are more than welcome to join the Working G=
roup as an Invited Expert, although an expert should be aware of the basics=
 of security.=C2=A0 <br><br></div><div>Although there are a number of inacc=
uracies in this report in terms of WebCrypto, it&#39;s pretty clear Web Aut=
hentication matches all requirements in Section 6 here:<br><a href=3D"http:=
//w3ctag.github.io/client-certificates/" target=3D"_blank">http://w3ctag.gi=
thub.io/client-certificates/</a><br><br></div><div>Thus, it makes sense to =
hold off and deprecate &lt;keygen&gt; after the fall of this year, when Web=
 Authentication is deployed in browsers. As stated earlier, the &quot;WebID=
&quot; community can simply use Web Authentication rather than client certs=
 for authentication. <br><br>That being said, since the only browser that s=
upports &lt;keygen&gt; currently is Mozilla, who plans to deprecate regardl=
ess of what the TAG says, then it can also be justified to remove from the =
standard today as there is no interoperability. <br></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>=C2=A0=C2=A0 cheers,<br></div><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
harry<br><br></div><div><br>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex"><div><div></div>
<div>Cheers,<br></div>
<div>Reto<br></div>
<div><div>=C2=A0</div>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div></div></div><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra">-- <br><div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_si=
gnature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=
<a href=3D"https://konklone.com" target=3D"_blank">konklone.com</a> | <a hr=
ef=3D"https://twitter.com/konklone" target=3D"_blank">@konklone</a><br></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div>

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