Re: Firefox addin to replace 404 pages with archived pages from wayback machine
Melvin Carvalho <[email protected]> Tue, 9 Aug 2016 05:58:26 +0200
| Newsgroups | gmane.org.w3c.tag |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CAKaEYhKxzAFSEh42gz3CuOwRza85Sbw4qfW4Dg9ovcnafWESqA@mail.gmail.com> |
--001a114034308103e405399b8bee Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 8 August 2016 at 17:02, Noah Mendelsohn <[email protected]> wrote: > Just to be clear, I said in my initial post that as long as the addin or > feature was running at the user's request with clear indication of which > content is from 404 pages, I don't think there's a violation of Web arch. > > My point was that: whether or not deleting pages (I.e. taking URIs that > were 200 or 3XX and making them 404) is something we discourage on policy > grounds, it's a supported and important part of Web arch. When I make a > page 404 I usually have good reasons, and in general I expect users to see > the page I return with the 404. I believe that's that the pertinent > specifications call for, and should remain the default behavior of user > agents. > Let's say a user has bookmarked a page for reference. And that page has moved, but is yet archived. I can see value for a user to see the material that she had seen before, from an archived version. 4xx is indicated to the user agent, and I think that fundamentally in web arch the user is the ultimate curator of the content presented. > > Thank you. > > Noah > > On 8/5/2016 4:58 PM, Herbert Van de Sompel wrote: > >> On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Noah Mendelsohn <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> See [1]. >> >> I thought this might be of some interest to the TAG. Seems to me that >> this is OK insofar as the addin is a modification to a user agent, and >> is presumably activated only with the user's consent. >> >> Nonethess, this seems to embody a slightly skewed view of Web >> protocols: if I as a URI authority serve a new or updated page, your >> browser will do what I intend and show the user that new content. If I >> delete a page, the browser will not honor that deletion, but will show >> content anyway. This seems to me just a bit of a slippery slope. A 404 >> is just as meaningful in Web protocols (no such page) as a 200 IMO. >> >> >> The Memento Extension for Chrome (http://bit.ly/memento-for-chrome) >> handles >> 404 and much more. It covers archived resources in many web archives, see >> http://timetravel.mementoweb.org/about/. And its behavior is completely >> under control of the user because it works by right-clicking links or >> pages. >> >> Right clicking yields a Memento menu with several options: >> * Get near current date: Retrieves the most recently archived resource, >> and >> hence can be used to address 404. >> * Get near saved date: retrieves an archived resource with archival >> datetime closest to the date set in a calendar picker >> * Get near memento-datetime: if the page is itself an archived resource in >> a web archive, retrieves an archived resource of a linked resource with >> archival datetime closest to the date expressed in the page's >> Memento-Datetime header. >> * Get near page date: retrieves an archived resource with a datetime >> closest to the page datetime if it is provided in a machine-readable >> manner >> * Get near link date: retrieves an archived resource with a datetime >> closest to date expressed in the data-versiondate link decoration >> attribute, as defined in http://robustlinks.mementoweb.org/spec/ >> >> Note that the Memento protocol is not only for web archives. It can also >> be >> supported by version control systems, wikis, etc. For example, the W3C >> wiki >> and all versions of the W3C specs are accessible using Memento. Using, >> e.g. >> Memento for Chrome, one can seamlessly navigate to the version of a wiki >> page or W3C spec as it was at a certain date. And, of course to versions >> of >> linked resources, using right-click as described above. Using the Time >> Travel API, see http://timetravel.mementoweb.org/guide/api/, one can use >> a >> URI of this form to get to a version of a W3C spec as it existed at a >> given >> date: >> http://timetravel.mementoweb.org/memento/20031112/https://ww >> w.w3.org/TR/webarch/ >> >> Cheers >> >> Herbert >> >> >> >> >> I'm not proposing that the TAG do anything about this or devote >> significant time to it right now, just pointing it out in case it's of >> interest. >> >> Thank you. >> >> Noah >> >> >> [1] >> http://gadgets.ndtv.com/apps/news/firefox-will-try-to-show-y >> ou-saved-archive-of-a-page-instead-of-404-error-869482 >> <http://gadgets.ndtv.com/apps/news/firefox-will-try-to-show- >> you-saved-archive-of-a-page-instead-of-404-error-869482> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Herbert Van de Sompel >> Digital Library Research & Prototyping >> Los Alamos National Laboratory, Research Library >> http://public.lanl.gov/herbertv/ >> http://orcid.org/0000-0002-0715-6126 >> >> == >> > > --001a114034308103e405399b8bee Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo= te">On 8 August 2016 at 17:02, Noah Mendelsohn <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a hre= f=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a= >></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 = 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Just to be clear, I s= aid in my initial post that as long as the addin or feature was running at = the user's request with clear indication of which content is from 404 p= ages, I don't think there's a violation of Web arch.<br> <br> My point was that: whether or not deleting pages (I.e. taking URIs that wer= e 200 or 3XX and making them 404) is something we discourage on policy grou= nds, it's a supported and important part of Web arch. When I make a pag= e 404 I usually have good reasons, and in general I expect users to see the= page I return with the 404. I believe that's that the pertinent specif= ications call for, and should remain the default behavior of user agents.<b= r></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Let's say a user has bookmarked a pa= ge for reference.=C2=A0 And that page has moved, but is yet archived.=C2=A0= I can see value for a user to see the material that she had seen before, f= rom an archived version.<br><br></div><div>4xx is indicated to the user age= nt, and I think that fundamentally in web arch the user is the ultimate cur= ator of the content presented.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class= =3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd= ing-left:1ex"> <br> Thank you.<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br> <br> Noah</font></span><span class=3D""><br> <br> On 8/5/2016 4:58 PM, Herbert Van de Sompel wrote:<br> </span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-= left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D""> On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Noah Mendelsohn <<a href=3D"mailto:nrm@= arcanedomain.com" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><br></span><div= ><div class=3D"h5"> <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">nrm@ar= canedomain.com</a>>> wrote:<br> <br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 See [1].<br> <br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I thought this might be of some interest to the TAG. Seems to= me that<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 this is OK insofar as the addin is a modification to a user a= gent, and<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is presumably activated only with the user's consent.<br> <br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Nonethess, this seems to embody a slightly skewed view of Web= <br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 protocols: if I as a URI authority serve a new or updated pag= e, your<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 browser will do what I intend and show the user that new cont= ent. If I<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 delete a page, the browser will not honor that deletion, but = will show<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 content anyway. This seems to me just a bit of a slippery slo= pe. A 404<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is just as meaningful in Web protocols (no such page) as a 20= 0 IMO.<br> <br> <br> The Memento Extension for Chrome (<a href=3D"http://bit.ly/memento-for-chro= me" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://bit.ly/memento-for-chr<wbr>= ome</a>) handles<br> 404 and much more. It covers archived resources in many web archives, see<b= r> <a href=3D"http://timetravel.mementoweb.org/about/" rel=3D"noreferrer" targ= et=3D"_blank">http://timetravel.mementoweb.o<wbr>rg/about/</a>. And its beh= avior is completely<br> under control of the user because it works by right-clicking links or pages= .<br> <br> Right clicking yields a Memento menu with several options:<br> * Get near current date: Retrieves the most recently archived resource, and= <br> hence can be used to address 404.<br> * Get near saved date: retrieves an archived resource with archival<br> datetime closest to the date set in a calendar picker<br> * Get near memento-datetime: if the page is itself an archived resource in<= br> a web archive, retrieves an archived resource of a linked resource with<br> archival datetime closest to the date expressed in the page's<br> Memento-Datetime header.<br> * Get near page date: retrieves an archived resource with a datetime<br> closest to the page datetime if it is provided in a machine-readable manner= <br> * Get near link date: retrieves an archived resource with a datetime<br> closest to date expressed in the data-versiondate link decoration<br> attribute, as defined in <a href=3D"http://robustlinks.mementoweb.org/spec/= " rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://robustlinks.mementoweb.<wbr>o= rg/spec/</a><br> <br> Note that the Memento protocol is not only for web archives. It can also be= <br> supported by version control systems, wikis, etc. For example, the W3C wiki= <br> and all versions of the W3C specs are accessible using Memento. Using, e.g.= <br> Memento for Chrome, one can seamlessly navigate to the version of a wiki<br= > page or W3C spec as it was at a certain date. And, of course to versions of= <br> linked resources, using right-click as described above. Using the Time<br> Travel API, see <a href=3D"http://timetravel.mementoweb.org/guide/api/" rel= =3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://timetravel.mementoweb.o<wbr>rg/gui= de/api/</a>, one can use a<br> URI of this form to get to a version of a W3C spec as it existed at a given= <br> date:<br> <a href=3D"http://timetravel.mementoweb.org/memento/20031112/https://www.w3= .org/TR/webarch/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://timetravel.me= mentoweb.o<wbr>rg/memento/20031112/https://ww<wbr>w.w3.org/TR/webarch/</a><= br> <br> Cheers<br> <br> Herbert<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I'm not proposing that the TAG do anything about this or = devote<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 significant time to it right now, just pointing it out in cas= e it's of<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 interest.<br> <br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thank you.<br> <br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Noah<br> <br> <br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [1]<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://gadgets.ndtv.com/apps/news/firefox-will-try= -to-show-you-saved-archive-of-a-page-instead-of-404-error-869482" rel=3D"no= referrer" target=3D"_blank">http://gadgets.ndtv.com/apps/n<wbr>ews/firefox-= will-try-to-show-y<wbr>ou-saved-archive-of-a-page-ins<wbr>tead-of-404-error= -869482</a><br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <<a href=3D"http://gadgets.ndtv.com/apps/news/firefox-will= -try-to-show-you-saved-archive-of-a-page-instead-of-404-error-869482" rel= =3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://gadgets.ndtv.com/apps/<wbr>news/fi= refox-will-try-to-show-<wbr>you-saved-archive-of-a-page-in<wbr>stead-of-404= -error-869482</a>><br> <br> <br> <br> <br> --<br> Herbert Van de Sompel<br> Digital Library Research & Prototyping<br> Los Alamos National Laboratory, Research Library<br> <a href=3D"http://public.lanl.gov/herbertv/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_= blank">http://public.lanl.gov/herbert<wbr>v/</a><br> <a href=3D"http://orcid.org/0000-0002-0715-6126" rel=3D"noreferrer" target= =3D"_blank">http://orcid.org/0000-0002-071<wbr>5-6126</a><br> <br> =3D=3D<br> </div></div></blockquote> <br> </blockquote></div><br></div></div> --001a114034308103e405399b8bee--