Re: Discussion about a way forward Was: Re: Wikipedia at 25: A Wake-Up Call (essay)
Christophe Henner via Wikimedia-l <[email protected]> Tue, 7 Jul 2026 19:17:41 +0200
| Newsgroups | gmane.org.wikimedia.foundation |
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| Message-ID | <CAFaJbjf9rmwAwpgoyi33GFMxP6gRTgT_QH1YG=PZ+ksRDygk_w@mail.gmail.com> |
--===============8941988011732602359== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b33fbd06560893b7" --000000000000b33fbd06560893b7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable we'll be talking in a little less than two hours https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Event:This_is_not_a_meeting :) -- Christophe On Fri, 3 Jul 2026 at 21:22, Christophe Henner <[email protected]= > wrote: > I'm forking my original thread > > I love the discussion and energy so much that I'd like to offer a "meetup= " > on the topic. I've created an event for next week, and to avoid endless > discussion on the call name: This is not a meeting: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Event:This_is_not_a_meeting on Tuesday > 19:00 UTC. > > I tried to strike a balance between structured enough to manage > expectations but open enough too. I've added a stub of an agenda, with a > goal to create a baseline on things there's agreement on, plus ideas, > suggestions, etc. to move forward. > > I would love to open the floor with 2 or 3 three-minute lightning talks > for people to present/share a view on the situation, so we can start the > discussion with a few statements. Anyone interested, just send me a messa= ge > or leave one on the Event talk page, I'll reach out. > > And then break into groups for people to talk about specific topics (I've > made proposals on the page, but they would benefit from other people's > insights to improve them). Then re-group for discussion, no more than 5 > minutes. And I've added a 42-minute overflow, so that if people want to > linger around, they can. But if people can't do more than an hour of > meeting, they can very easily leave the discussion. > > And that leaves us a few days to prepare and keep talking in writing. :) > > Now that the discussion has started, I'd like to quote a great philosophe= r > about something we'd like to avoid: "For a moment, nothing happened. Then= , > after a second or so, nothing continued to happen." > Have all a great day :) > > -- > Christophe > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2026 at 12:10=E2=80=AFAM Samuel Klein via Wikimedia-l < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Dear Nada, excellent framing. It is entirely in our control to fix >> outreach, build welcoming and forgiving environments, make strides with >> less-resource languages and communities. >> >> Christophe, thanks again for persisting in this thread (and planning a >> range of activities around Wikimania!) I see many people engaged with >> these topics who don't want to engage in discussion about angst over >> current problems, but are deeply enthusiastic about, and actively engage= d >> in, building new things / working on new possibilities. >> >> Brooke writes: >> > Wikimedia is a participatory system... We have to put in the work >> ourselves. >> >> Absolutely. The civilized netizen's first duty is to be always prepared >> to rewrite <https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Umberto_Eco> anything truly >> important from scratch. >> >> Galder writes: >> >>> One correction: I'm not a trustee! >>> >> >> But we surely trust you, including to make the world's best Txikipedia. >> >> We have many good ideas and talented people in the community. We do >> need persistent spaces to discuss and make plans, in part because in the >> last growth spurt we fragmented communication channels across hundreds o= f >> pages, sites, lists, and apps. Recombining many of those streams would = be >> good for coherence and continuity. >> >> But our wikis are better suited to experimenting, reverting, and >> iterating than distilling large-scale consensus. Quick decisions by >> ~sortition (or by the first few people to turn up) help polish the rough= est >> edges. Having spaces that push back against the iron law >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy> of oligarchy and >> preserve freedom to experiment is essential, even when simultaneously >> waiting for delayed consensus. >> >> Our strongest shared identity is as people committed to building >> freely-licensed knowledge together, in every language, accessible to the >> entire world. More people care about this today than ever before. We sim= ply >> have to make space for it again. >> >> =F0=9D=90=96=E2=99=A1, SJ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines >> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> Public archives at >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= org/message/RJV4EYFT53SYRNXZPOMP54CXTRGWLNB3/ >> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org > > --000000000000b33fbd06560893b7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">we'll be talking in a little less than two=C2=A0hours= =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Event:This_is_not_a_meetin= g">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Event:This_is_not_a_meeting</a> :)<div><= br clear=3D"all"></div><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data= -smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">--<br>Christophe</div></div><br></div><br><d= iv class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gm= ail_attr">On Fri, 3 Jul 2026 at 21:22, Christophe Henner <<a href=3D"mai= lto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> wrote:= <br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8= ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr= "><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div style=3D"font-size:inherit"><p style=3D"color:= rgb(0,0,0)">I'm forking my original thread</p><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0= ,0)">I love the discussion and energy so much that I'd like to offer a = "meetup" on the topic. I've created an event for next week, a= nd to avoid endless discussion on the call name: This is not a meeting:<spa= n>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Event:This_is_not= _a_meeting" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Event:This_is= _not_a_meeting</a><span>=C2=A0</span>on Tuesday 19:00 UTC.</p><p style=3D"c= olor:rgb(0,0,0)">I tried to strike a balance between structured enough to m= anage expectations but open enough too. I've added a stub of an agenda,= with a goal to create a baseline on things there's agreement on, plus = ideas, suggestions, etc. to move forward.</p><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">= I would love to open the floor with 2 or 3 three-minute lightning talks for= people to present/share a view on the situation, so we can start the discu= ssion with a few statements. Anyone interested, just send me a message or l= eave one on the Event talk page,=C2=A0I'll reach out.=C2=A0</p><p style= =3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">And then break into groups for people to talk about s= pecific topics (I've made proposals on the page, but they would benefit= from other people's insights to=C2=A0improve them). Then re-group for = discussion, no more than 5 minutes. And I've added a 42-minute overflow= , so that if people want to linger around, they can. But if people can'= t do more than an hour of meeting, they can very easily leave the discussio= n.</p><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">And that leaves us a few days to prepar= e and keep talking in writing. :)</p><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">Now that= the discussion has started, I'd like to quote a great philosopher abou= t something we'd like to avoid: "For a moment, nothing happened. T= hen, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen."</p></div></di= v><div>Have all a great day :)</div><div><br clear=3D"all"><div><div dir=3D= "ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature">--<br>Christophe</div></div></div></div><di= v><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On F= ri, Jul 3, 2026 at 12:10=E2=80=AFAM Samuel Klein via Wikimedia-l <<a hre= f=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l@= lists.wikimedia.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot= e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)= ;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div = dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"background-col= or:transparent">Dear Nada, excellent framing.=C2=A0 It is entirely in our c= ontrol to fix outreach, build welcoming and forgiving environments, make st= rides with less-resource languages and communities.=C2=A0 <br><br>Christoph= e, thanks again for persisting in this thread (and planning a range of acti= vities around Wikimania!)=C2=A0 I see many people engaged with these topics= who=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"background-color:transparent">don't wan= t to engage in discussion about angst over current problems, but are deeply= enthusiastic about, and actively engaged in, building new things / working= on new possibilities.</span></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"backgrou= nd-color:transparent"><br>Brooke writes:=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></span><span style= =3D"background-color:transparent">> Wikimedia is a participatory system.= ..=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"background-color:transparent">We </span>have = to<span style=3D"background-color:transparent"> put in the work ourselves.<= /span></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Absolutely.=C2=A0 T= he civilized netizen's first duty is <a href=3D"https://en.wikiquote.or= g/wiki/Umberto_Eco" target=3D"_blank">to be always prepared to rewrite</a>= =C2=A0anything truly important from scratch.=C2=A0=C2=A0<br><div><br></div>= <span style=3D"background-color:transparent">Galder writes:</span></div><di= v class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0= px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><= div> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> One correction: I'm not a trustee!</div> <div id=3D"m_-3257792352544361276m_5780306257926595954m_825098896065876282m= _6520172203024871229m_8356870054322612186m_-6692941270673887459m_4218606558= 173225528m_-6615731068182817330appendonsend"></div> </div></div></blockquote></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"><= /div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div dir=3D"ltr">But we surely trust you, includi= ng to make the world's best Txikipedia.=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gm= ail_quote"></div>We have many good ideas and talented people in the communi= ty.=C2=A0=C2=A0<span style=3D"background-color:transparent">We do need pers= istent spaces to discuss and make plans, in part because </span>in<span sty= le=3D"background-color:transparent"> the last growth spurt we fragmented co= mmunication channels across hundreds of pages, sites, lists, and apps.=C2= =A0 Recombining many of those streams would be good for coherence and conti= nuity.</span></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>But our wikis are better suited to = experimenting, reverting, and iterating than distilling large-scale consens= us. Quick decisions by ~sortition (or by the first few people to turn up) h= elp polish the roughest edges. Having spaces that push back against the <a = href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy" target=3D"_bla= nk">iron law</a> of oligarchy and preserve freedom to experiment is essenti= al, even when simultaneously waiting for delayed consensus.<br><br>Our stro= ngest shared identity is as people committed to building freely-licensed kn= owledge together, in every language, accessible to the entire world. More p= eople care about this today than ever before. We simply have to make space = for it again.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">=F0=9D=90=96= =E2=99=A1,=C2=A0SJ</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div></div> </div> </div> </div> </div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/RJV4EYFT53SYRNXZPOMP54CXTRGWLNB3/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/RJV4EYFT53SYRNXZPOMP54CXTRGWLN= B3/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div></div> </div> </blockquote></div> --000000000000b33fbd06560893b7-- --===============8941988011732602359== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/PGT5R7WVN6EBTU5GSTV5HTP5HTD2CKPS/ To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org --===============8941988011732602359==--