Re: Google Zero is coming [was Re: Wikipedia at 25: A Wake-Up Call (essay)]

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Hear hear! I warmly endorse Luis's last message. It matches my own
observations, which I am expressing in my volunteer capacity, but basing on
my experience as longtime staff as well.

I have been encouraging communities to develop and nurture a culture of
experimentation
<https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:A_Culture_of_Experimentation_for_W=
ikimedia.pdf>
for several years now, and we have better tooling and infrastructure for
experimentation than ever before.

I think one possible next step could be to identify a handful of
experienced folks willing to be facilitators-and-mentors for groups of
volunteers passionate about experimentation, then setting up such groups.
The groups, with light facilitation, could generate ideas and testable
hypotheses, document them, go ahead and experiment, and report back. (If
this sounds appealing to folks, I would be willing to step up as one such
facilitator/mentor, in my volunteer capacity.)

   A.

On Wed, Jul 8, 2026 at 10:53=E2=80=AFPM Luis Villa via Wikimedia-l <
[email protected]> wrote:

> TLDR: WMF has to make hard choices, but we as a community, of which WMF i=
s
> only one part, do not have to make false choices - we can try to do a lot
> of things.
>
> On Wed, Jul 8, 2026 at 1:41=E2=80=AFAM Dimitar Zagorski <
> dimitar.parvanov.dimitrov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
>> It seems to me that we have to make a few uncomfortable choices before w=
e
>> start solving this.
>>
>> Do we accept that our audience will shrink permanently and there is no
>> way around it? Then we could embrace the role of a top source for LLMs a=
nd
>> "ground truth". We would stop obsessing about the trends and focus on ho=
w
>> to maintain a healthy community and funding.
>>
>> Or do we want to fight against shrinking audiences? Then, in my mind, we
>> would need to be very aggressive and start using some tools and
>> technologies that we have always been very sceptical of. This, I guess,
>> would include things like content optimisation, an AI chat, major
>> investment in versatile social media channels and various new apps that
>> deliver content under our brands to specific audiences.
>>
>
> WMF, with large but finite resources, reputational concerns, etc etc will=
 need
> to make hard choices. Maybe not exactly these hard choices, but some sort
> of hard choices.
>
> **We as a broad movement with many members do not have to make this
> choice. We, the movement, can do both.** We can work to become a trusted
> source of ground truth; and work with new sources of traffic (like TikTok
> or YT or GLAMs or arxiv or all of the above) to drive traffic. Most of th=
e
> "choices" ahead of us can be handled this way - we're tens of thousands o=
f
> people, dozens of peer movement organizations, and thousands of
> knowledge-oriented fellow travelers. When someone says "we can only do on=
e
> or the other" we should, as much as possible, reject that false binary an=
d
> instead seek to find more resources, run more experiments, do more.
>
> This will be easy, because open means we, the community, can just do
> stuff! we, the community, don=E2=80=99t have to ask permission! We can ex=
periment,
> build, talk to each other as peers, expanding what works and dropping wha=
t
> doesn't. And we now have tooling that lets our best and most creative mov=
e
> faster than ever before.
>
> And at the same time it will be hard. Frankly, we have let that open/BOLD
> habit atrophy, so we will need changes in practice and attitude.
>
> Changes will have to include: (generalizations ahead, there are
> counter-examples to everything I say below but they are exceptions):
>
> - community members need to stop thinking =E2=80=9Cstep 0 is get funding =
from WMF=E2=80=9D
> for every single activity. We need to get back to our roots as a scrappy,
> grassroots movement, which means both creativity in getting funding
> (wikicheese!) and creativity in building without funding. (I am keenly
> aware that this has equity impacts, and we need to be as thoughtful as
> possible about that, but we can't let that stop us from reinvigorating
> volunteering.)
>
> - WMF needs to actively tell potential partners =E2=80=9Copen knowledge i=
s in an
> all-hands-on-deck moment=E2=80=94so don=E2=80=99t treat WMF as the sole p=
layer=E2=80=9D. Too many
> potential funders and partners look at WMF and think =E2=80=9CWe fund Wik=
imedia by
> funding WMF=E2=80=9D/=E2=80=9CWMF is the only way to partner with Wikiped=
ia=E2=80=9D. (I don=E2=80=99t
> think this is WMF=E2=80=99s fault, to be clear; it=E2=80=99s a natural pa=
ttern for funders
> to fall into.) But WMF needs to move from passively letting that happen,
> and towards actively disabusing funders and partners of that habit. All
> those partners need to get more comfortable partnering with chapters,
> individuals, or even doing things themselves.
>
> - We need a culture of BOLD experimentation. The choice you=E2=80=99re sa=
ying we
> need to make, Dimi, would take a year or more and never really be settled=
.
> (It=E2=80=99s taking months just for the WMF to grapple with this interna=
lly, much
> less the movement as a whole.) So we need to as much as possible do =E2=
=80=9Call of
> the above=E2=80=9D, and build back our muscles of sharing experiments and=
 learnings
> - including failing without fear, and sharing what failed. (I sincerely
> think one of the best things someone could do right now is become the Mol=
ly
> of AI+wiki, doing steady, consistent news-gathering and synthesis on what
> is working and what isn=E2=80=99t.)
>
> - Scale of impact is important, but it isn=E2=80=99t everything. Sometime=
s we=E2=80=99ll
> have to build things without knowing if they=E2=80=99ll scale, or even pe=
rhaps
> knowing that they won=E2=80=99t scale (eg Depths of Wikipedia is one of t=
he best
> community-builders we have even though it has =E2=80=9Conly=E2=80=9D a fe=
w million
> followers). =E2=80=9CThat=E2=80=99s good but it won=E2=80=99t scale to en=
wiki=E2=80=9D can never be allowed
> to be a blocker for anyone. If the experiment is actually great, then we=
=E2=80=99ll
> figure out a way to get it onto enwiki. Or not! That shouldn=E2=80=99t st=
op people.
>
> I=E2=80=99m sure there are others, and like I said, there are plenty of
> counterexamples to each of these. But they=E2=80=99re big patterns I see =
after a
> decade on the sidelines, and we need to unlearn them.
>
>> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]=
rg/message/NOXRAAVFSFLR2NL62F5MQARLDZ2ZOHOU/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org



--=20
Asaf Bartov <[email protected]>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hear hear! I warmly endorse Luis&#39;s last=C2=A0mess=
age. It matches my own observations, which I am expressing in my volunteer =
capacity, but basing on my experience as longtime staff as well.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>I have been encouraging communities to <a href=3D"https://co=
mmons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:A_Culture_of_Experimentation_for_Wikimedia.pd=
f">develop and nurture a culture of experimentation</a> for several years n=
ow, and we have better tooling and infrastructure for experimentation than =
ever before.</div><div><br></div><div>I think one possible next step could =
be to identify a handful of experienced folks willing to be facilitators-an=
d-mentors for groups of volunteers passionate about experimentation, then s=
etting up such groups. The groups, with light facilitation, could generate =
ideas and testable hypotheses, document them, go ahead and experiment, and =
report back. (If this sounds appealing to folks, I would be willing to step=
 up as one such facilitator/mentor,=C2=A0in my volunteer=C2=A0capacity.)</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0A.</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, J=
ul 8, 2026 at 10:53=E2=80=AFPM Luis Villa via Wikimedia-l &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"auto">TLDR: WMF has to make hard choices, but w=
e as a community, of which WMF is only one part, do not have to make false =
choices - we can try to do a lot of things.<br><br>On Wed, Jul 8, 2026 at 1=
:41=E2=80=AFAM Dimitar Zagorski &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dimitar.parvanov.dimi=
[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">dimitar.parvanov.dimitrov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br></div></div><div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
</div></div></div><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div>It seems to me that we have to make a few uncomfortable=
 choices before we start solving this.</div><div><br></div><div>Do we accep=
t that our audience will shrink permanently and there is no way around it? =
Then we could embrace the role of a top source for LLMs and &quot;ground tr=
uth&quot;. We would stop obsessing about the trends and focus on how to mai=
ntain a healthy community and funding.=C2=A0<br><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
>Or do we want to fight against shrinking audiences? Then, in my mind, we w=
ould need to be very aggressive and start using some tools and technologies=
 that we have always been very sceptical of. This, I guess, would include t=
hings like content optimisation, an AI chat, major investment in versatile =
social media channels and various new apps that deliver content under our b=
rands to specific audiences.=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto=
"><br></div></div><div><div dir=3D"auto"><div style=3D"font-size:inherit" d=
ir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-size:inherit;font-style:normal;font-weight:=
400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:n=
ormal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline;backg=
round-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(0,0,0);color:rgb(0,0,0)">WMF, wi=
th large but finite resources, reputational concerns, etc etc will=C2=A0</s=
pan><span style=3D"font-size:inherit;font-style:normal;font-weight:400;lett=
er-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wo=
rd-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline;background-co=
lor:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(0,0,0);color:rgb(0,0,0)">need to make ha=
rd choices. Maybe not exactly these hard choices, but some sort of hard cho=
ices.=C2=A0</span></div><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">**We as a broad movemen=
t with many members do not have to make this choice. We, the movement, can =
do both.** We can work to become a trusted source of ground truth; and work=
 with new sources of traffic (like TikTok or YT or GLAMs or arxiv or all of=
 the above) to drive traffic. Most of the &quot;choices&quot; ahead of us c=
an be handled this way - we&#39;re tens of thousands of people, dozens of p=
eer movement organizations, and thousands of knowledge-oriented fellow trav=
elers. When someone says &quot;we can only do one or the other&quot; we sho=
uld, as much as possible, reject that false binary and instead seek to find=
 more resources, run more experiments, do more.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto">This will be easy, because open means we, the commu=
nity, can just do stuff! we, the community, don=E2=80=99t have to ask permi=
ssion! We can experiment, build, talk to each other as peers, expanding wha=
t works and dropping what doesn&#39;t. And we now have tooling that lets ou=
r best and most creative move faster than ever before.</div><div dir=3D"aut=
o"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">And at the same time it will be hard. Frankl=
y, we have let that open/BOLD habit atrophy, so we will need changes in pra=
ctice and attitude.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Chan=
ges will have to include: (generalizations ahead, there are counter-example=
s to everything I say below but they are exceptions):</div><div dir=3D"auto=
"><br></div><div>- community members need to stop thinking =E2=80=9Cstep 0 =
is get funding from WMF=E2=80=9D for every single activity. We need to get =
back to our roots as a scrappy, grassroots movement, which means both creat=
ivity in getting funding (wikicheese!) and creativity in building without f=
unding. (I am keenly aware that this has equity impacts, and we need to be =
as thoughtful as possible about that, but we can&#39;t let that stop us fro=
m reinvigorating volunteering.)</div><div><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">- WMF=
 needs to actively tell potential partners =E2=80=9Copen knowledge is in an=
 all-hands-on-deck moment=E2=80=94so don=E2=80=99t treat WMF as the sole pl=
ayer=E2=80=9D. Too many potential funders and partners look at WMF and thin=
k =E2=80=9CWe fund Wikimedia by funding WMF=E2=80=9D/=E2=80=9CWMF is the on=
ly way to partner with Wikipedia=E2=80=9D. (I don=E2=80=99t think this is W=
MF=E2=80=99s fault, to be clear; it=E2=80=99s a natural pattern for funders=
 to fall into.) But WMF needs to move from passively letting that happen, a=
nd towards actively disabusing funders and partners of that habit. All thos=
e partners need to get more comfortable partnering with chapters, individua=
ls, or even doing things themselves.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div =
dir=3D"auto">- We need a culture of BOLD experimentation. The choice you=E2=
=80=99re saying we need to make, Dimi, would take a year or more and never =
really be settled. (It=E2=80=99s taking months just for the WMF to grapple =
with this internally, much less the movement as a whole.) So we need to as =
much as possible do =E2=80=9Call of the above=E2=80=9D, and build back our =
muscles of sharing experiments and learnings - including failing without fe=
ar, and sharing what failed. (I sincerely think one of the best things some=
one could do right now is become the Molly of AI+wiki, doing steady, consis=
tent news-gathering and synthesis on what is working and what isn=E2=80=99t=
.)</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">- Scale of impact is =
important, but it isn=E2=80=99t everything. Sometimes we=E2=80=99ll have to=
 build things without knowing if they=E2=80=99ll scale, or even perhaps kno=
wing that they won=E2=80=99t scale (eg Depths of Wikipedia is one of the be=
st community-builders we have even though it has =E2=80=9Conly=E2=80=9D a f=
ew million followers). =E2=80=9CThat=E2=80=99s good but it won=E2=80=99t sc=
ale to enwiki=E2=80=9D can never be allowed to be a blocker for anyone. If =
the experiment is actually great, then we=E2=80=99ll figure out a way to ge=
t it onto enwiki. Or not! That shouldn=E2=80=99t stop people.</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I=E2=80=99m sure there are others, an=
d like I said, there are plenty of counterexamples to each of these. But th=
ey=E2=80=99re big patterns I see after a decade on the sidelines, and we ne=
ed to unlearn them.</div><div dir=3D"auto"></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"auto"></div></div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"></=
blockquote></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
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rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <=
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/Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim=
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Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w=
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el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/=
list/[email protected]/message/NOXRAAVFSFLR2NL62F5MQARLDZ2ZOH=
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To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]=
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blockquote></div><div><br clear=3D"all"></div><br><span class=3D"gmail_sign=
ature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature">Asaf=
 Bartov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">asaf=
[email protected]</a>&gt;</div>

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