Re: Google Zero is coming [was Re: Wikipedia at 25: A Wake-Up Call (essay)]
Ilario Valdelli via Wikimedia-l <[email protected]> Thu, 9 Jul 2026 16:38:13 +0200
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--===============3161968017886809874== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009fc72606562e938c" --0000000000009fc72606562e938c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable James, thank you for grounding this with real numbers rather than impressions =E2=80=94 the Similarweb figure and the cross-language health c= ontent analysis are exactly the kind of evidence this thread needs, and they're worth taking as the starting point. That said, I don't think there's much left to gain from debating what should have been done differently. What happened, happened =E2=80=94 the pa= st doesn't come back, and no amount of hindsight changes the trajectory from here. What matters more now is the immediate ahead of us, and looking at it with a different mindset: not only as a problem, but as something that might open an opportunity =E2=80=94 because very often what looks like a threat t= o us is somebody else's opportunity, and figuring out which side of that split we're on matters more than assigning blame for the past. A few things, connected, that point in that direction (even not a complete picture). AI infrastructure spending is running above $1 trillion globally this year, with investors increasingly nervous about the return on it. [1] At the same time, open-weight models that run locally =E2=80=94 largely ou= t of China, but not only =E2=80=94 are now within a few points of frontier bench= marks at a fraction of the cost.[2] Regulation is starting to require actual, checkable data provenance rather than declared compliance (EU AI Act for instance). And large parts of the web are moving toward walling off AI crawlers and charging for metered access by default.[3] Put together, I think James's numbers might not just describe a decline =E2= =80=94 they might be the leading edge of a market starting to separate "content that's cheap to grab" from "content whose origin can be verified," and pricing them very differently. If that's right, it matters most exactly where James's data points: health content is where the cost of being wrong is highest, and where verifiable sourcing should be worth the most, not the least. kind regards Ilario [1] https://about.bnef.com/insights/data-centers/ai-data-center-build-advances-= at-full-speed-five-things-to-know/ [2] <https://about.bnef.com/insights/data-centers/ai-data-center-build-advances= -at-full-speed-five-things-to-know/> https://computingforgeeks.com/open-source-llm-comparison/ [3 <https://about.bnef.com/insights/data-centers/ai-data-center-build-advances= -at-full-speed-five-things-to-know/> https://techcrunch.com/2026/07/01/cloudflares-new-policy-pushes-ai-companie= s-to-pay-for-publishers-content/ <https://about.bnef.com/insights/data-centers/ai-data-center-build-advances= -at-full-speed-five-things-to-know/> On Thu, Jul 9, 2026 at 10:39=E2=80=AFAM James Heilman via Wikimedia-l < [email protected]> wrote: > The question regarding what percent of our traffic comes from search? > Similarweb says about 80%, so basically we could lose another 80% of our > current traffic. > > https://www.similarweb.com/website/wikipedia.org/#traffic-sources > > Is the fall in traffic happening in just big languages? No it is > happening in many languages of Wikipedia, at least for health content, > There were some exceptions like Persian and Chinese that has seen a small > degree of growth > > > https://github.com/nethahussain/Pageviews-in-Medicine/blob/main/analysis/= covid_analysis_output.txt > > J > > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2026 at 10:18=E2=80=AFAM Yaroslav Blanter via Wikimedia-l = < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> I do not think Google Zero will be (is) experienced by anyone except for >> us as a problem. >> >> Sure, the current AI search is not perfect, but it will be much better o= n >> a horizon of months. It is unfortunate that the end users take the resul= ts >> uncritically rather than checking them clicking on the source links, but= it >> is what it is. May be this culture would change, but this timescale is w= ay >> way longer than the time to improve the AI search quality. >> >> Except for obvious financial implications (which are very important >> though) it looks like Wikipedia will be mainly the base for training AI.= It >> is ok, in real life most people do not read encyclopaedias. It is import= ant >> to be the training base as well, but we should also realize that if this= is >> our role then some priorities must be shifted. For example, AI do not ca= re >> whether the article looks nice or not, they do not care about usability. >> They probably do not care about categories and many other things we spen= t >> years trying to make them perfect. They do care about content though. >> >> On the other hand, there are clearly things AI can not do, which were >> already mentioned here. They can not read offline material, and much of = the >> paywall material. They can not produce pictures out of nothing - which >> means Commons might have a very different role from what it has now. It >> might even become the flagship project (unlikely though with the current >> Commons community). But all these things require attention, and many of >> them will be resisted by the community in the first place. >> >> Best >> Yaroslav >> >> On Thu, Jul 9, 2026 at 9:33=E2=80=AFAM Anders Wennersten via Wikimedia-l= < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> I agree we ought to analyze better our situation, before we run to >>> conclusions and discuss remedies >>> >>> Swwp has seen a decrease in traffic like others but in June we have see= n >>> an increase even if we include only accesses from mobiles (at least f= or >>> June) >>> >>> >>> https://stats.wikimedia.org/#/sv.wikipedia.org/reading/total-page-views= /normal|bar|2-year|(agent)~user|monthly >>> >>> What we have seen more clearly though is that accesses of the most read >>> articles per day in decreasing. >>> >>> We have also more subjectively from media, and social media seen a >>> growing skepticism toward AI-generated results and an increase in the t= rust >>> of Wikipedia results >>> >>> Our general conclusions this far are >>> >>> *We are doing well in our core encyclopedic articles (like of >>> administrative divisions within a country) , but less well in newslike >>> articles (which the internet readers asks more frequently, but where >>> newswebsites always been stronger). And we should concentrate our effor= ts >>> where we are strong >>> >>> *We are in a late stage in our general product life cycle and must >>> accept this. We will never have the increase in editors etc like we had= e 15 >>> yeas ago, but must do what we can do thrive in a this mode. For us - l= ess >>> angry internal argument, partially done by avoiding articles of infecte= d >>> subjects like Israel-Palestine >>> >>> And for Google Zero. I believe it is them who has a problem not us. >>> Early on, and still, all new PC user were forced into Microsoft Edge an= d >>> Bing which lead us to Firefox and Google. Google zero as I see will le= ad >>> to an exodus fr=C3=A5n Google, there are many other search engines that= works >>> fine >>> >>> Wikipedia is great >>> >>> Anders >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Den 2026-07-09 kl. 08:35, skrev Kimmo Virtanen via Wikimedia-l: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Secondly, I'd love to see initiative outside of enwiki. If you look at >>>> all the ~1000 Wikimedia projects, almost all of them are seeing an inc= rease >>>> in traffic ; only a few big old wikipedias are seeing a decrease (whic= h are >>>> also the ones with the most traffic, hence why it's more visible but i= t >>>> obfuscate at the big picture) >>> >>> >>> Based on stats total pageviews of human users of all wikis are dropping >>> - >>> https://stats.wikimedia.org/#/all-projects/reading/total-page-views/nor= mal|bar|all|(agent)~user|monthly >>> >>> >>> Br, >>> -- Kimmo Virtanen, Zache >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2026 at 9:13=E2=80=AFAM Nicolas VIGNERON via Wikimedia-l= < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi y'all, >>>> >>>> First could someone remind me how much traffic comes from Google (I >>>> have a vague memory from last year that this is already very low - may= be 10 >>>> or 20 % - and that LLMs are already bringing more traffic to Wikipedia= , if >>>> true we essentially are at Google Zero already). >>>> >>>> Secondly, I'd love to see initiative outside of enwiki. If you look at >>>> all the ~1000 Wikimedia projects, almost all of them are seeing an inc= rease >>>> in traffic ; only a few big old wikipedias are seeing a decrease (whic= h are >>>> also the ones with the most traffic, hence why it's more visible but i= t >>>> obfuscate at the big picture). >>>> I think we should start by looking at and learning from the >>>> "successful" projects instead of focusing on the declining ones. For >>>> instance, Wikisources always have been badly to not-at-all referenced = by >>>> Google and yet there is a strong increase in pageviews recently. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Nicolas >>>> >>>> Le jeu. 9 juil. 2026 =C3=A0 03:38, Michael Snow via Wikimedia-l < >>>> [email protected]> a =C3=A9crit : >>>> >>>>> On 7/8/2026 12:52 PM, Luis Villa via Wikimedia-l wrote: >>>>> > - Scale of impact is important, but it isn=E2=80=99t everything. So= metimes >>>>> > we=E2=80=99ll have to build things without knowing if they=E2=80=99= ll scale, or even >>>>> > perhaps knowing that they won=E2=80=99t scale (eg Depths of Wikiped= ia is one >>>>> > of the best community-builders we have even though it has =E2=80=9C= only=E2=80=9D a >>>>> few >>>>> > million followers). =E2=80=9CThat=E2=80=99s good but it won=E2=80= =99t scale to enwiki=E2=80=9D can >>>>> > never be allowed to be a blocker for anyone. If the experiment is >>>>> > actually great, then we=E2=80=99ll figure out a way to get it onto = enwiki. >>>>> Or >>>>> > not! That shouldn=E2=80=99t stop people. >>>>> >>>>> At this point, no single initiative (whether community, chapter, or >>>>> WMF-led) will have an inherent capacity to scale to enwiki. To do so >>>>> would require corporate-style resources with a corresponding top-down >>>>> mandate for implementation, and risk (rightly) triggering resistance >>>>> to >>>>> the point of launching a true durable fork, for once. Instead, the >>>>> best >>>>> approach would be to find ideas that are good enough to propagate, >>>>> encourage them, and when they have propagated enough, they will scale >>>>> with relatively little intervention needed. >>>>> >>>>> --Michael Snow >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], >>>>> guidelines at: >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>>> Public archives at >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= ia.org/message/6EQOFSG34E3BC6FIYL55HYBTQBAW4XFN/ >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], >>>> guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guideline= s >>>> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>> Public archives at >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= a.org/message/4WPCSTZNDMBDMYHWHV27BN2EZLGY5LXB/ >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines= at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://m= eta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>> Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedi= [email protected]/message/W24PTVEX2A7YSR4YNHIUQTCGMAIMF2S3/ >>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines >>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>> Public archives at >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= .org/message/XEKWEBKCXK2V4B3M2JSVFF4E53CWOKI3/ >>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines >> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> Public archives at >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= org/message/6N356SKKS2KZEDCV2PFC4GSCERTB7D3E/ >> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org > > > > -- > James Heilman > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > Public archives at > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= rg/message/WC6L3CIEKYWOXNR6FG343RJOX6YGTNRS/ > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org --=20 Ilario Valdelli Skype: valdelli Tel: +41764821371 http://www.wikimedia.ch --0000000000009fc72606562e938c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"> <p class=3D"gmail-font-claude-response-body gmail-break-words gmail-whitesp= ace-normal">James, thank you for grounding this with real numbers rather th= an impressions =E2=80=94 the Similarweb figure and the cross-language healt= h content analysis are exactly the kind of evidence this thread needs, and = they're worth taking as the starting point.</p> <p class=3D"gmail-font-claude-response-body gmail-break-words gmail-whitesp= ace-normal">That said, I don't think there's much left to gain from= debating what should have been done differently. What happened, happened = =E2=80=94 the past doesn't come back, and no amount of hindsight change= s the trajectory from here.</p><p class=3D"gmail-font-claude-response-body = gmail-break-words gmail-whitespace-normal">What matters more now is the imm= ediate ahead of us, and looking at it with a different mindset: not only as= a problem, but as something that might open an opportunity =E2=80=94 becau= se very often what looks like a threat to us is somebody else's opportu= nity, and figuring out which side of that split we're on matters more t= han assigning blame for the past.</p> <p class=3D"gmail-font-claude-response-body gmail-break-words gmail-whitesp= ace-normal">A few things, connected, that point in that direction (even not= a complete picture). AI infrastructure spending is running above $1 trilli= on globally this year, with investors increasingly nervous about the return= on it. [1] =C2=A0At the same time, open-weight models that run locally =E2=80=94 large= ly out of China, but not only =E2=80=94 are now within a few points of fron= tier benchmarks at a fraction of the cost.[2] Regulation is starting to req= uire actual, checkable data provenance rather than declared compliance (EU = AI Act for instance). And large parts of the web are moving toward walling = off AI crawlers and charging for metered access by default.[3]</p><p class= =3D"gmail-font-claude-response-body gmail-break-words gmail-whitespace-norm= al">Put together, I think James's numbers might not just describe a dec= line =E2=80=94 they might be the leading edge of a market starting to separ= ate "content that's cheap to grab" from "content whose o= rigin can be verified," and pricing them very differently. If that'= ;s right, it matters most exactly where James's data points: health con= tent is where the cost of being wrong is highest, and where verifiable sour= cing should be worth the most, not the least.<br><br></p><p class=3D"gmail-= font-claude-response-body gmail-break-words gmail-whitespace-normal">kind r= egards<br><br></p><p class=3D"gmail-font-claude-response-body gmail-break-w= ords gmail-whitespace-normal">Ilario</p> [1] <a class=3D"gmail-underline gmail-underline gmail-underline-offset-2 gm= ail-decoration-1 gmail-decoration-current/40 gmail-hover:decoration-current= gmail-focus:decoration-current" href=3D"https://about.bnef.com/insights/da= ta-centers/ai-data-center-build-advances-at-full-speed-five-things-to-know/= ">https://about.bnef.com/insights/data-centers/ai-data-center-build-advance= s-at-full-speed-five-things-to-know/<br> [2] </a><a class=3D"gmail-underline gmail-underline gmail-underline-offset-= 2 gmail-decoration-1 gmail-decoration-current/40 gmail-hover:decoration-cur= rent gmail-focus:decoration-current" href=3D"https://computingforgeeks.com/= open-source-llm-comparison/">https://computingforgeeks.com/open-source-llm-= comparison/</a><a class=3D"gmail-underline gmail-underline gmail-underline-= offset-2 gmail-decoration-1 gmail-decoration-current/40 gmail-hover:decorat= ion-current gmail-focus:decoration-current" href=3D"https://about.bnef.com/= insights/data-centers/ai-data-center-build-advances-at-full-speed-five-thin= gs-to-know/"><br>[3=C2=A0</a><a class=3D"gmail-underline gmail-underline gm= ail-underline-offset-2 gmail-decoration-1 gmail-decoration-current/40 gmail= -hover:decoration-current gmail-focus:decoration-current" href=3D"https://t= echcrunch.com/2026/07/01/cloudflares-new-policy-pushes-ai-companies-to-pay-= for-publishers-content/">https://techcrunch.com/2026/07/01/cloudflares-new-= policy-pushes-ai-companies-to-pay-for-publishers-content/</a> <a class=3D"gmail-underline gmail-underline gmail-underline-offset-2 gmail-= decoration-1 gmail-decoration-current/40 gmail-hover:decoration-current gma= il-focus:decoration-current" href=3D"https://about.bnef.com/insights/data-c= enters/ai-data-center-build-advances-at-full-speed-five-things-to-know/"><b= r></a></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir= =3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 9, 2026 at 10:39=E2=80=AFAM James= Heilman via Wikimedia-l <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= org">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote cl= ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid= rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">The question regarding= what percent of our traffic comes from search? Similarweb says about 80%, = so basically we could lose another 80% of our current traffic.<div><br></di= v><div><a href=3D"https://www.similarweb.com/website/wikipedia.org/#traffic= -sources" target=3D"_blank">https://www.similarweb.com/website/wikipedia.or= g/#traffic-sources</a></div><div><br></div><div>Is the fall in traffic=C2= =A0happening=C2=A0in just big languages? No it is happening=C2=A0in many la= nguages of Wikipedia, at least for health content, There were some exceptio= ns like Persian and Chinese that has seen a small degree of growth</div><di= v><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://github.com/nethahussain/Pageviews-in-Me= dicine/blob/main/analysis/covid_analysis_output.txt" target=3D"_blank">http= s://github.com/nethahussain/Pageviews-in-Medicine/blob/main/analysis/covid_= analysis_output.txt</a></div><div><br></div><div>J</div><div><br></div><div= ><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"g= mail_attr">On Thu, Jul 9, 2026 at 10:18=E2=80=AFAM Yaroslav Blanter via Wik= imedia-l <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_= blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote = class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol= id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I do not think = Google Zero will be (is) experienced by anyone except for us as a problem.<= /div><div><br></div><div>Sure, the current AI search is not perfect, but it= will be much better on a horizon of months. It is unfortunate that the end= users take the results uncritically rather than checking them clicking on = the source links, but it is what it is. May be this culture would change, b= ut this timescale is way way longer than the time to improve the AI search = quality.</div><div><br></div><div>Except for obvious financial implications= (which are very important though) it looks like Wikipedia will be mainly t= he base for training AI. It is ok, in real life most people do not read enc= yclopaedias. It is important to be the training base as well, but we should= also realize that if this is our role then some priorities must be shifted= . For example, AI do not care whether the article looks nice or not, they d= o not care about usability. They probably do not care about categories and = many other things we spent years trying to make them perfect. They do care = about content though.</div><div><br></div><div>On the other hand, there are= clearly things AI can not do, which were already mentioned here. They can = not read offline material, and much of the paywall material. They can not p= roduce pictures out of nothing - which means Commons might have a very diff= erent role from what it has now. It might even become the flagship project = (unlikely though with the current Commons community). But all these things = require attention, and many of them will be resisted by the community in th= e first place.</div><div><br></div><div>Best</div><div>Yaroslav</div></div>= <br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu= , Jul 9, 2026 at 9:33=E2=80=AFAM Anders Wennersten via Wikimedia-l <<a h= ref=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu= ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20= 4);padding-left:1ex"><u></u> =20 =20 =20 <div> <p>I agree we ought to analyze better our situation, before we run to conclusions and discuss remedies</p> <p>Swwp has seen a decrease in traffic like others but in June we have seen an increase=C2=A0 even if we include only=C2=A0 accesses fr= om mobiles (at least for June)</p> <p><a href=3D"https://stats.wikimedia.org/#/sv.wikipedia.org/reading/to= tal-page-views/normal%7Cbar%7C2-year%7C(agent)~user%7Cmonthly" target=3D"_b= lank">https://stats.wikimedia.org/#/sv.wikipedia.org/reading/total-page-vie= ws/normal|bar|2-year|(agent)~user|monthly</a></p> <p>What we have seen more clearly though is that accesses of the most read articles per day in decreasing.</p> <p>We have also more subjectively from media, and social media seen a growing skepticism toward AI-generated results and an increase in the trust of Wikipedia results=C2=A0</p> <p>Our general conclusions this far are</p> <p>*We are doing well in our core encyclopedic articles (like of administrative divisions within a country) , but less well in newslike articles (which the internet readers asks more frequently, but where newswebsites always been stronger). And we should concentrate our efforts where we are strong</p> <p>*We are in a late stage in our general product life cycle and must accept this. We will never have the increase in editors etc like we hade 15 yeas ago, but must do what we can=C2=A0 do thrive in = a this mode. For us - less angry internal argument, partially done by avoiding articles of infected subjects like Israel-Palestine</p> <p>And for Google Zero. I believe it is them who has a problem not us. Early on, and still, all new PC user were forced into Microsoft Edge and Bing=C2=A0 which lead us to Firefox and Google. Google zero as I see will lead to an exodus fr=C3=A5n Google, there a= re many other search engines that works fine</p> <p>Wikipedia is great</p> <p>Anders</p> <p><br> </p> <p><br> </p> <p><br> </p> <div>Den 2026-07-09 kl. 08:35, skrev Kimmo Virtanen via Wikimedia-l:<br> </div> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> =20 <div dir=3D"ltr">Hi, <div><br> </div> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex= ;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><font color=3D"#1= 34f5c">Secondly, I'd love to see initiative outside of enwiki. If you look at all the ~1000 Wikimedia projects, almost all of them are seeing an increase in traffic ; only a few big old wikipedias are seeing=C2=A0a decrease (which are also the ones with the most traffic,=C2=A0hence why it's mo= re visible but it obfuscate at the big picture)</font></blockquote= > <div><br> </div> <div>Based on stats total pageviews of human users of all wikis are dropping</div> <div>-<span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://stats.wikimedia.org/#/a= ll-projects/reading/total-page-views/normal%7Cbar%7Call%7C(agent)~user%7Cmo= nthly" target=3D"_blank">https://stats.wikimedia.org/#/all-projects/reading= /total-page-views/normal|bar|all|(agent)~user|monthly</a>=C2=A0</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Br,</div> <div>-- Kimmo Virtanen, Zache</div> </div> <br> <div class=3D"gmail_quote"> <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 9, 2026 at 9:13= =E2=80=AFAM Nicolas VIGNERON via Wikimedia-l <<a href=3D"mailto:wikimedia-= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a= >> wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex= ;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div>Hi y'all,</div> <div><br> </div> <div>First could someone remind me how much traffic comes from Google (I have a vague memory from last year that this is already very low - maybe 10 or 20 % - and that LLMs are already=C2=A0bringing more traffic to Wikipedia, if true we essentially are at Google Zero already).</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Secondly, I'd love to see initiative outside of enwiki= . If you look at all the ~1000 Wikimedia projects, almost all of them are seeing an increase in traffic ; only a few big old wikipedias are seeing=C2=A0a decrease (which are also the ones with the most traffic,=C2=A0hence why it's more visible but it obfuscate at the big picture).</div> <div>I think we should start by looking at and learning from the "successful" projects instead of focusing on th= e declining ones. For instance, Wikisources always have been badly to not-at-all referenced by Google and yet there is a strong increase in pageviews recently.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Cheers,</div> <div>Nicolas</div> </div> <br> <div class=3D"gmail_quote"> <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">Le=C2=A0jeu. 9 juil. 2026 =C3=A0=C2=A003:38, Michael Snow via Wikimedia-l <<a href= =3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l@l= ists.wikimedia.org</a>> a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<br> </div> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0= .8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On 7/8/2026 12:52 PM, Luis Villa via Wikimedia-l wrote:<br> > - Scale of impact is important, but it isn=E2=80=99t everything. Sometimes <br> > we=E2=80=99ll have to build things without knowing if th= ey=E2=80=99ll scale, or even <br> > perhaps knowing that they won=E2=80=99t scale (eg Depths= of Wikipedia is one <br> > of the best community-builders we have even though it has =E2=80=9Conly=E2=80=9D a few <br> > million followers). =E2=80=9CThat=E2=80=99s good but it = won=E2=80=99t scale to enwiki=E2=80=9D can <br> > never be allowed to be a blocker for anyone. If the experiment is <br> > actually great, then we=E2=80=99ll figure out a way to g= et it onto enwiki. Or <br> > not! That shouldn=E2=80=99t stop people.<br> <br> At this point, no single initiative (whether community, chapter, or <br> WMF-led) will have an inherent capacity to scale to enwiki. To do so <br> would require corporate-style resources with a corresponding top-down <br> mandate for implementation, and risk (rightly) triggering resistance to <br> the point of launching a true durable fork, for once. Instead, the best <br> approach would be to find ideas that are good enough to propagate, <br> encourage them, and when they have propagated enough, they will scale <br> with relatively little intervention needed.<br> <br> --Michael Snow<br> <br> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:wikimedia-l@lis= ts.wikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mai= ling_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wi= kimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimed= ia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyp= erkitty/list/[email protected]/message/6EQOFSG34E3BC6FIYL55HY= BTQBAW4XFN/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.o= rg/hyperkitty/list/[email 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protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= pre> </blockquote> </div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/XEKWEBKCXK2V4B3M2JSVFF4E53CWOKI3/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/XEKWEBKCXK2V4B3M2JSVFF4E53CWOK= I3/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email 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ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div><div><br clear=3D"all"></div><div><br></div><span class=3D= "gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_sign= ature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"= ltr">James Heilman<br>MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian</div></div></div></div></div>= </div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/WC6L3CIEKYWOXNR6FG343RJOX6YGTNRS/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/WC6L3CIEKYWOXNR6FG343RJOX6YGTN= RS/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div><div><br clear=3D"all"></div><br><span class=3D"gmail_sign= ature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"><div= dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><span><font col= or=3D"#888888">Ilario Valdelli</font></span></div><div><span><font color=3D= "#888888">Skype: valdelli<br></font></span></div></div><span></span><span><= /span></div></div></div><span><font color=3D"#888888"> </font></span><div><div><div><div><div><span><font color=3D"#888888">Tel: <= a value=3D"+41764821371">+41764821371</a><br><a href=3D"http://www.wikimedi= a.ch/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.wikimedia.ch</a></font></span></div></d= iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div> --0000000000009fc72606562e938c-- --===============3161968017886809874== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/HIZMAIRB76D2DSGKNC2IHQJQGGB56HPW/ To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org --===============3161968017886809874==--