Re: Discussion about a way forward Was: Re: Wikipedia at 25: A Wake-Up Call (essay)
Christophe Henner via Wikimedia-l <[email protected]> Fri, 10 Jul 2026 10:16:35 +0200
| Newsgroups | gmane.org.wikimedia.foundation |
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| Message-ID | <CAFaJbjdPwhbBSHXCPhbVidkKp+F1PQcAsrcYeugV8DaWCRxmug@mail.gmail.com> |
--===============7643583675619404327== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cf3f9e06563d5c96" --000000000000cf3f9e06563d5c96 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone, The meeting did happen, it got bumpy but it did gather around 50 people iirc. We took notes and crafted a meeting summary : https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Next_25/Meeting_summary We're also repurposing a Telegram group (formerly known as Swan) for live discussions : https://t.me/+baK_5KetC3cwY2Yx Long story short, if you want to skip the summary, is that people are concerned but we need to build shared understanding of the situation to be able to move forward. I want to thank everyone that showed up, it felt "good" to see people turning up and contributing. As often, now it needs to continue, but at least there was a first step. We'll set up other meetings and perhaps a Wikimania "meetup" or something. But it's great to see the discussion finally happening and I hope we can create a space to have them :) Have all a great day! -- Christophe On Tue, Jul 7, 2026 at 7:18=E2=80=AFPM Christophe Henner via Wikimedia-l < [email protected]> wrote: > we'll be talking in a little less than two hours > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Event:This_is_not_a_meeting :) > > -- > Christophe > > > On Fri, 3 Jul 2026 at 21:22, Christophe Henner < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> I'm forking my original thread >> >> I love the discussion and energy so much that I'd like to offer a >> "meetup" on the topic. I've created an event for next week, and to avoid >> endless discussion on the call name: This is not a meeting: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Event:This_is_not_a_meeting on Tuesday >> 19:00 UTC. >> >> I tried to strike a balance between structured enough to manage >> expectations but open enough too. I've added a stub of an agenda, with a >> goal to create a baseline on things there's agreement on, plus ideas, >> suggestions, etc. to move forward. >> >> I would love to open the floor with 2 or 3 three-minute lightning talks >> for people to present/share a view on the situation, so we can start the >> discussion with a few statements. Anyone interested, just send me a mess= age >> or leave one on the Event talk page, I'll reach out. >> >> And then break into groups for people to talk about specific topics (I'v= e >> made proposals on the page, but they would benefit from other people's >> insights to improve them). Then re-group for discussion, no more than 5 >> minutes. And I've added a 42-minute overflow, so that if people want to >> linger around, they can. But if people can't do more than an hour of >> meeting, they can very easily leave the discussion. >> >> And that leaves us a few days to prepare and keep talking in writing. :) >> >> Now that the discussion has started, I'd like to quote a great >> philosopher about something we'd like to avoid: "For a moment, nothing >> happened. Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen." >> Have all a great day :) >> >> -- >> Christophe >> >> On Fri, Jul 3, 2026 at 12:10=E2=80=AFAM Samuel Klein via Wikimedia-l < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Dear Nada, excellent framing. It is entirely in our control to fix >>> outreach, build welcoming and forgiving environments, make strides with >>> less-resource languages and communities. >>> >>> Christophe, thanks again for persisting in this thread (and planning a >>> range of activities around Wikimania!) I see many people engaged with >>> these topics who don't want to engage in discussion about angst over >>> current problems, but are deeply enthusiastic about, and actively engag= ed >>> in, building new things / working on new possibilities. >>> >>> Brooke writes: >>> > Wikimedia is a participatory system... We have to put in the work >>> ourselves. >>> >>> Absolutely. The civilized netizen's first duty is to be always >>> prepared to rewrite <https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Umberto_Eco> anythin= g >>> truly important from scratch. >>> >>> Galder writes: >>> >>>> One correction: I'm not a trustee! >>>> >>> >>> But we surely trust you, including to make the world's best Txikipedia. >>> >>> We have many good ideas and talented people in the community. We do >>> need persistent spaces to discuss and make plans, in part because in >>> the last growth spurt we fragmented communication channels across hundr= eds >>> of pages, sites, lists, and apps. Recombining many of those streams wo= uld >>> be good for coherence and continuity. >>> >>> But our wikis are better suited to experimenting, reverting, and >>> iterating than distilling large-scale consensus. Quick decisions by >>> ~sortition (or by the first few people to turn up) help polish the roug= hest >>> edges. Having spaces that push back against the iron law >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy> of oligarchy and >>> preserve freedom to experiment is essential, even when simultaneously >>> waiting for delayed consensus. >>> >>> Our strongest shared identity is as people committed to building >>> freely-licensed knowledge together, in every language, accessible to th= e >>> entire world. More people care about this today than ever before. We si= mply >>> have to make space for it again. >>> >>> =F0=9D=90=96=E2=99=A1, SJ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines >>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>> Public archives at >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= .org/message/RJV4EYFT53SYRNXZPOMP54CXTRGWLNB3/ >>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > Public archives at > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= rg/message/PGT5R7WVN6EBTU5GSTV5HTP5HTD2CKPS/ > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org --000000000000cf3f9e06563d5c96 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div><div style=3D"font-size:inherit"><div style=3D"font-size:inherit;font-= style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-tra= nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:1px;background-color:rgba(0,0,0= ,0);border-color:rgb(0,0,0);color:rgb(0,0,0)">Hi everyone,</div><div style= =3D"font-size:inherit;font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:norm= al;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:1px;= background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(0,0,0);color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b= r></div><div style=3D"font-size:inherit;font-style:normal;font-weight:400;l= etter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal= ;word-spacing:1px;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(0,0,0);co= lor:rgb(0,0,0)">The meeting did happen, it got bumpy but it did gather arou= nd 50 people iirc.=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-size:inherit;font-style:no= rmal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:n= one;white-space:normal;word-spacing:1px;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);bord= er-color:rgb(0,0,0);color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:inh= erit;font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0p= x;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:1px;background-color:= rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(0,0,0);color:rgb(0,0,0)">We took notes and c= rafted a meeting summary :=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/= Next_25/Meeting_summary" style=3D"font-size:1rem;background-color:rgba(0,0,= 0,0);border-color:rgb(66,133,244);color:rgb(66,133,244)">https://meta.wikim= edia.org/wiki/Next_25/Meeting_summary</a>=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-siz= e:inherit;font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-inde= nt:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:1px;background-c= olor:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(0,0,0);color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div= style=3D"font-size:inherit;font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacin= g:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin= g:1px;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(0,0,0);color:rgb(0,0,= 0)">We're also repurposing a Telegram group (formerly known as Swan) fo= r live discussions :=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://t.me/+baK_5KetC3cwY2Yx" style= =3D"font-size:1rem;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(66,133,2= 44);color:rgb(66,133,244)">https://t.me/+baK_5KetC3cwY2Yx</a></div><div sty= le=3D"font-size:inherit;font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:no= rmal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:1p= x;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(0,0,0);color:rgb(0,0,0)">= <br></div><div style=3D"font-size:inherit;font-style:normal;font-weight:400= ;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norm= al;word-spacing:1px;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(0,0,0);= color:rgb(0,0,0)">Long story short, if you want to skip the summary, is tha= t people are concerned but we need to build shared understanding of the sit= uation to be able to move=C2=A0forward.=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-size:= inherit;font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent= :0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:1px;background-col= or:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(0,0,0);color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div s= tyle=3D"font-size:inherit;font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:= normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:= 1px;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(0,0,0);color:rgb(0,0,0)= " dir=3D"auto">I want to thank everyone that showed up, it felt "good&= quot; to see people turning up and contributing. As often, now it needs to = continue, but at least there was a first step. We'll set up other meeti= ngs and perhaps a Wikimania "meetup" or something. But it's g= reat to see the discussion finally happening=C2=A0and I hope we can create = a space to have them :)</div><div style=3D"font-size:inherit;font-style:nor= mal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:no= ne;white-space:normal;word-spacing:1px;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);borde= r-color:rgb(0,0,0);color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:inhe= rit;font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px= ;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:1px;background-color:r= gba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(0,0,0);color:rgb(0,0,0)">Have all a great day= !</div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br clear=3D"all"><br clear=3D"all"><d= iv><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signa= ture">--<br>Christophe</div></div></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote = gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 7,= 2026 at 7:18=E2=80=AFPM Christophe Henner via Wikimedia-l <<a href=3D"m= ailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>&= gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0= px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div = dir=3D"ltr">we'll be talking in a little less than two=C2=A0hours=C2=A0= <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Event:This_is_not_a_meeting" tar= get=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Event:This_is_not_a_meeting<= /a> :)<div><br clear=3D"all"></div><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_sig= nature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">--<br>Christophe</div></div><br>= </div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">= On Fri, 3 Jul 2026 at 21:22, Christophe Henner <<a href=3D"mailto:christ= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>>= ; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px= 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div di= r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div style=3D"font-size:inherit"><p style= =3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">I'm forking my original thread</p><p style=3D"col= or:rgb(0,0,0)">I love the discussion and energy so much that I'd like t= o offer a "meetup" on the topic. I've created an event for ne= xt week, and to avoid endless discussion on the call name: This is not a me= eting:<span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Event:T= his_is_not_a_meeting" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Eve= nt:This_is_not_a_meeting</a><span>=C2=A0</span>on Tuesday 19:00 UTC.</p><p = style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">I tried to strike a balance between structured e= nough to manage expectations but open enough too. I've added a stub of = an agenda, with a goal to create a baseline on things there's agreement= on, plus ideas, suggestions, etc. to move forward.</p><p style=3D"color:rg= b(0,0,0)">I would love to open the floor with 2 or 3 three-minute lightning= talks for people to present/share a view on the situation, so we can start= the discussion with a few statements. Anyone interested, just send me a me= ssage or leave one on the Event talk page,=C2=A0I'll reach out.=C2=A0</= p><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">And then break into groups for people to ta= lk about specific topics (I've made proposals on the page, but they wou= ld benefit from other people's insights to=C2=A0improve them). Then re-= group for discussion, no more than 5 minutes. And I've added a 42-minut= e overflow, so that if people want to linger around, they can. But if peopl= e can't do more than an hour of meeting, they can very easily leave the= discussion.</p><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">And that leaves us a few days= to prepare and keep talking in writing. :)</p><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)= ">Now that the discussion has started, I'd like to quote a great philos= opher about something we'd like to avoid: "For a moment, nothing h= appened. Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen."</p>= </div></div><div>Have all a great day :)</div><div><br clear=3D"all"><div><= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature">--<br>Christophe</div></div></div= ></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_= attr">On Fri, Jul 3, 2026 at 12:10=E2=80=AFAM Samuel Klein via Wikimedia-l = <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">wi= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"= gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20= 4,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"= ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"back= ground-color:transparent">Dear Nada, excellent framing.=C2=A0 It is entirel= y in our control to fix outreach, build welcoming and forgiving environment= s, make strides with less-resource languages and communities.=C2=A0 <br><br= >Christophe, thanks again for persisting in this thread (and planning a ran= ge of activities around Wikimania!)=C2=A0 I see many people engaged with th= ese topics who=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"background-color:transparent">don= 't want to engage in discussion about angst over current problems, but = are deeply enthusiastic about, and actively engaged in, building new things= / working on new possibilities.</span></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><span style= =3D"background-color:transparent"><br>Brooke writes:=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></span>= <span style=3D"background-color:transparent">> Wikimedia is a participat= ory system...=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"background-color:transparent">We <= /span>have to<span style=3D"background-color:transparent"> put in the work = ourselves.</span></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Absolute= ly.=C2=A0 The civilized netizen's first duty is <a href=3D"https://en.w= ikiquote.org/wiki/Umberto_Eco" target=3D"_blank">to be always prepared to r= ewrite</a>=C2=A0anything truly important from scratch.=C2=A0=C2=A0<br><div>= <br></div><span style=3D"background-color:transparent">Galder writes:</span= ></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style= =3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding= -left:1ex"><div> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> One correction: I'm not a trustee!</div> <div id=3D"m_-5081421173591815061m_-3257792352544361276m_578030625792659595= 4m_825098896065876282m_6520172203024871229m_8356870054322612186m_-669294127= 0673887459m_4218606558173225528m_-6615731068182817330appendonsend"></div> </div></div></blockquote></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"><= /div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div dir=3D"ltr">But we surely trust you, includi= ng to make the world's best Txikipedia.=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gm= ail_quote"></div>We have many good ideas and talented people in the communi= ty.=C2=A0=C2=A0<span style=3D"background-color:transparent">We do need pers= istent spaces to discuss and make plans, in part because </span>in<span sty= le=3D"background-color:transparent"> the last growth spurt we fragmented co= mmunication channels across hundreds of pages, sites, lists, and apps.=C2= =A0 Recombining many of those streams would be good for coherence and conti= nuity.</span></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>But our wikis are better suited to = experimenting, reverting, and iterating than distilling large-scale consens= us. Quick decisions by ~sortition (or by the first few people to turn up) h= elp polish the roughest edges. Having spaces that push back against the <a = href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy" target=3D"_bla= nk">iron law</a> of oligarchy and preserve freedom to experiment is essenti= al, even when simultaneously waiting for delayed consensus.<br><br>Our stro= ngest shared identity is as people committed to building freely-licensed kn= owledge together, in every language, accessible to the entire world. More p= eople care about this today than ever before. We simply have to make space = for it again.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">=F0=9D=90=96= =E2=99=A1,=C2=A0SJ</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div></div> </div> </div> </div> </div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/RJV4EYFT53SYRNXZPOMP54CXTRGWLNB3/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/RJV4EYFT53SYRNXZPOMP54CXTRGWLN= B3/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div></div> </div> </blockquote></div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/PGT5R7WVN6EBTU5GSTV5HTP5HTD2CKPS/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/PGT5R7WVN6EBTU5GSTV5HTP5HTD2CK= PS/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div></div> --000000000000cf3f9e06563d5c96-- --===============7643583675619404327== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/QQ3NBFDK4OSFKMTG6OXVV43YZKVRCSIE/ To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org --===============7643583675619404327==--