Re: Do we even know what a good AI Optimization strategy would be for Wikipedia? Re: Re: Google Zero is coming [was Re: Wikipedia at 25: A Wake-Up Call (essay)]
Todd Allen via Wikimedia-l <[email protected]> Sat, 11 Jul 2026 12:29:53 -0600
| Newsgroups | gmane.org.wikimedia.foundation |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CAGToUqy8Xruj-Fb2CaxwdJdi3+=C4s+SgKaq_YHi3dunGk2Vdg@mail.gmail.com> |
--===============8938481844173359589== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000afaf3f06565a0cec" --000000000000afaf3f06565a0cec Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "My question is: What is the Wikimedia specific business model that allows our curated content to reach the humans we want to reach in this new distribution environment dictated by AI interfaces like RAG and slop-Apps?" Don't let them dictate. We write Wikipedia like we always have, by people for people. We've never cared about any "business model" and we shouldn't start to today. We just do our thing. Todd On Sat, Jul 11, 2026 at 11:44=E2=80=AFAM Alex Stinson via Wikimedia-l < [email protected]> wrote: > Hey Todd, James and Sage (referring to his recent post about adding video > to interfaces) > > Your comments highlight exatly where we actually very much are in > concensus: Wikipedia is first and foremost curated knowledge by humans fo= r > humans (this is the core of my essay here: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2026-06-21/Op-= ed > ) > > I am not arguing that we should have AI writing, or that AI is the primar= y > audience for our content, but rather whether we are entering an era of Ze= ro > Click Google, and if the big tech companies see through their vision (i.e= . > implementaiton of sloppy, adhoc commercially controlled interfaces on top > of the open internet i.e.: > https://blog.google/products-and-platforms/products/search/search-io-2026= / ) > we need to think about this as a distribution channel not an invisible > enemy. We cannot afford to miss this modality change in the same way we > missed other big changes on the internet. such as social media and the > TikTokified enshiftification towards endless scrolling, because we had a > guaranteed distribution channel: Google. > > Some more thoughts (and realizing that this should be an op-ed/blogpost > somewhere). > > *Interfaces are cheap, informed curators are expensive* > > Agentic AI, Coding tools and LLMs are making the cost of new interfaces *= extremely > cheap, *so cheap that I am commissioning a complex knowledge repository > for a fraction of the cost and time it would take otherwise. Interface > projects like WikiProject Med's offline medical Wikipedia App, which used > to take several months of highly specialized software development, can no= w > be spun up in a long weekend with a Claude Code Max subscription. Sage's > tool is a perfect example of this: perfect for a small market of users, > unlikely to be a "headline" Wikimedia tactic for getting in front of user= s, > because Youtube and AI search interfaces already do this exact thing. > > What is not cheap for all of the other platforms (and is often paid for b= y > ads), but which we have in abundance, is motivated humans who can > continue curating the knowledge (and more than 25 years of experiments on > facilitating knowledge equity focused gap filling). The questions we need > to address are: > > - Do the curators understand the future of distribution to other > humans we need to be building for across multiple future internet > scenerios? > - Do the curation practices serve diverse forms of access (languages, > geographies, topics) from that distribution? > - Do the curators understand demand and how curation choices affect > distribution to that demand? > - Can we recruit the next generation of curators who don't "assume" > that the pageview metric is the reason we contribute? > > *We need to see how distribution to humans is changing * > > Our metrics infrastructure overemphasizes our historical abundance of > pageviews=E2=80=9480% of which were driven by Google-- without seeing our > distribution to these other platforms. We need to *see the distribution* = in > order to make any decisions about our curatorial practices. . > > Once we understand the distribution, we will also see that AI tools > building interfaces need more than just access (i.e. Enterprise API or an > open license and scraper access), they require knowledge formatting and > organization practices (i.e. markdown files, vectorized search interfaces= , > AI skills, content chunking that makes the RAG search step easier, etc) > that necessarily require the content curators to change some of their > workflows and practices (emphasizing the authority of original authors in > citations, metadata on kind of "human questions" a section describes, etc= ). > Waiting for a handful of people at the Foundation to figure out which of > these content organization tactics are important is just not feasible=E2= =80=94we, > as the curators, need to *as the curators* imagine this future and > implement it in our content updates (especially when WMF's payroll relies > on the nostalgic pageview-to-fundraising business model). > > *We need a Wikimedia specific strategy for the future, not copy our peers= * > > Most websites are dividing the "content curation" from the representation > layer (modern headless CMS's > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headless_content_management_system are > increasingly the go to for other publishing websites). Demanding that the > Foundation (or Wikimedia projects) maintain our interface as the source o= f > reader interactions is likely not sustainable, or consistent with the way > in which knowledge curation now works on the internet. > > Our peers in textual content curation implemented radically different > strategies 3-5 years ago that build on this seperation of curation and > consumption: > > - New York Times doubled down on a "captive in an App" strategy > because it was a pillar of their approach=E2=80=94a strategy many news > organizations adopted as well. This approach is highly inappropriate f= or > the Wikimedia model; we have abundant research showing that our users = seek > "public service utility" content from us, not timely or trustworthy co= ntent. > - Britanica has shifted towards an education-market-first model that > allows them to build interfaces appropriate to educational needs and > garuntee a pipeline of funding. > - Reddit optimized for AI tools answering constructive user question > -- this also is not our goal, we are curators not "authorities" for an= swers. > - Companies like Healthline optimized for SEO optimization, which > gravitates for "generic assumptions of public search" instead of high > quality verfiable content (I have found misinformation on healthline > multiple times). > > My question is: What is the Wikimedia specific business model that allows > our curated content to reach the humans we want to reach in this new > distribution environment dictated by AI interfaces like RAG and slop-Apps= ? > > On Sat, Jul 11, 2026 at 12:04=E2=80=AFPM James Heilman via Wikimedia-l < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> The blue "Return to article" button works just fine. But yes thanks for >> pointing out that the back button within the Google chrome browser does = not >> work. Will work on fixing that. >> >> J >> >> On Sat, Jul 11, 2026 at 4:54=E2=80=AFPM Todd Allen via Wikimedia-l < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Are you talking about that godawful thing that I just clicked on in the >>> "wheat" article, that the back button doesn't work on? >>> >>> I'm pulling that out. Sorry, but "back button works" is a basic thing o= f >>> Web functionality. I should not need to click a "return to article" but= ton >>> to get back where I was. >>> >>> Todd >>> >>> On Sat, Jul 11, 2026 at 8:32=E2=80=AFAM James Heilman via Wikimedia-l < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> English Wikipedia is a conservative organization / project as are many >>>> other large versions of Wikipedia. Many stakeholders need to be convin= ced / >>>> brought on board to make even relatively minor changes. Innovating wit= hin >>>> smaller versions of Wikipedia or in other projects outside Wikipedia i= s >>>> much easier. And successes can occasionally be brought into the larger >>>> Wikipedias such as we did with Our World in Data interactive graphs... >>>> >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat#Production_and_consumption >>>> >>>> We have now added 100s of these in various languages. And they are >>>> getting thousands of plays a day. >>>> >>>> James >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jul 11, 2026 at 3:28=E2=80=AFPM Charles Roberson via Wikimedia= -l < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Wikimedia-I used to be a premium listserve of high minded ideas about >>>>> how to move the Foundation into the future. The past few months it ha= s >>>>> drifted into a lot of whining about AI with no real effort to accompl= ish >>>>> anything or even plan to do so. >>>>> >>>>> - Charles >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jul 11, 2026 at 1:44=E2=80=AFAM Todd Allen via Wikimedia-l < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> We sure do know what a good AI strategy looks like for Wikipedia. No >>>>>> AI on Wikipedia. >>>>>> >>>>>> We have not succeeded by being FaceGramTwitTube. We have succeeded b= y >>>>>> not being like them. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, same here. No "latest and greatest". No AI on Wikipedia. Ever, >>>>>> for any reason, period. Wikipedia is written by people for people. >>>>>> >>>>>> Todd >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 11:09=E2=80=AFPM James Heilman via Wikimedia= -l < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> What has motivated me to spend time writing Wikipedia over the year= s >>>>>>> is writing for humans. The fact that the content is openly licensed= and the >>>>>>> work is supported by an NGO is also key. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Personally i do not feel any motivation to write primarily for >>>>>>> trillion dollar machines surrounded by venture capital folks hoping= to make >>>>>>> a killing. If the machines want to adapt to human facing content su= re. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The approaches you mention is how Healthline succeeded, they >>>>>>> basically have dozens of articles covering the same topic just addr= essing >>>>>>> it from a slightly different question. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> J >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from Gmail Mobile >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 21:24 Alex Stinson via Wikimedia-l < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Forking this conversation, because I don't think we have a shared >>>>>>>> framing of what we are competing for in a "Google" Zero landscape = dominated >>>>>>>> by ChatBot/AI search style RAG citations (i.e. >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrieval-augmented_generation). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For the last 9 months, I've been examining how civil society >>>>>>>> content should be showing up in AI search, and there is a missing >>>>>>>> perspective in our "we will build it and they will come" approach = to >>>>>>>> Wikipedia. I don't think we can wait for the big tech companies or= European >>>>>>>> regulatory bodies to adopt a different idea of how RAG should work= . Here >>>>>>>> is my take from what I have been engaging with in the AIO/AEO/SEO = space: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Wikipedia doesn't have content that is SEO/AEO optimized* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Part of the problem, even if we did have an MCP server is that the >>>>>>>> models (at least in my tracking), are pushing many citations away = from >>>>>>>> "factual" websites, towards "authoritative" websites. This authori= tative >>>>>>>> content includes: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - Expert original, analysis that makes strong claims based on >>>>>>>> facts (i.e. blog posts by authoritative companies or recently p= ublished >>>>>>>> ScienceDirect articles) >>>>>>>> - Content that has been updated recently, with the biggest "hot >>>>>>>> takes" (i.e. I have monitored a couple of prompt pools where ci= tations >>>>>>>> shift to newer content after 2-3 months) >>>>>>>> - Content that helps users make a decision between different >>>>>>>> choices (i.e. review websites, etc) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is following Google's longer-term push towards "human centere= d >>>>>>>> and useful" content (sometimes called E-E-A-T an abbreviation of >>>>>>>> experience, expertise, authoritativeness, and trustworthiness, in = SEO >>>>>>>> world). >>>>>>>> https://developers.google.com/search/docs/fundamentals/creating-he= lpful-content >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To win in an AI optimization battle -- its less about Wikipedia >>>>>>>> doing well in the keyword search indexes that led to our content b= eing >>>>>>>> visible (which is why we have a reputation as a "fact checking" we= bsite) >>>>>>>> and more about "winning" in the criteria for what makes a good RAG= citation >>>>>>>> --- and our content format, is the exact opposite of the EAAT crit= eria: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - Wikipedia is not authoriative, but rather points to other >>>>>>>> authorities >>>>>>>> - We ground our content in anonymity instead of named experts >>>>>>>> or instutional process/opinoin >>>>>>>> - We rarely do original analysis instead summarizing the >>>>>>>> experience and expertise of others, >>>>>>>> - Alot of our content is out of date, and self-aware of its >>>>>>>> gaps (i.e. maintenance tags), so also is likely to be undermini= ng its own >>>>>>>> trustworthiness >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *All the data points to us being used, but without an official >>>>>>>> roundup we are all talking in the dark about different assumed rep= utation >>>>>>>> losses* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> RAG unlike Google Search Indexing, seems to be using Wikipedia for >>>>>>>> a fraction of a fraction of responses, favoring these other kinds = of >>>>>>>> sources: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - Only 5% of AI overviews have Wikipedia in them: >>>>>>>> https://ahrefs.com/blog/most-cited-domains-ai-overviews/ >>>>>>>> - I have access to SERanking's corpus of prompt monitoring >>>>>>>> across 5 models (ChatGPT, Perplexity, Google Models and they su= ggest that >>>>>>>> in May ~16% of prompts included Wikipdia, and in their most rec= ent month >>>>>>>> (June), ~13% of prompts. SERankings corpus is probably the # 4 = or 5 in >>>>>>>> commercial AIO data -- so could have gaps. >>>>>>>> - Studies from earlier in the year put Wikipedia at about ~13% >>>>>>>> of CHATGPT citations ( >>>>>>>> https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/wikipedia-and-reddit-n= ow-drive-over-25-of-chatgpt-citations-in-the-us-new-5w-research-finds--wsj-= nyt-and-bloomberg-do-not-appear-in-the-top-20-302768339.html >>>>>>>> but chatgpt on average includes >20 sources in a response, comp= ared to >>>>>>>> googles 5-10 and doesn't expose it in the interface very well) >>>>>>>> - Comparable "top" Websites, like Youtube, Reddit, and LinkedIn >>>>>>>> tend to represent a greater % of content (in the SERanking data= pool nearly >>>>>>>> 30% of responses had a Youtube Video cited for instance) >>>>>>>> - Domain specific citation pools have pretty significant >>>>>>>> differences in "which" sources are being called, with Wikipedia= doing well >>>>>>>> on some prompt pools: https://generativepulse.ai/report/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *RAG/AI search optimization focuses more on intent than keywords, >>>>>>>> and we aren't very effective at serving intent, and we don't know = where our >>>>>>>> optimization options are* >>>>>>>> What we need is an understanding of "which actual user reader >>>>>>>> behavior are we seeking to serve?". In the past we were extremely = lazy, >>>>>>>> because keyword search always delivered Wikipedia as "a first". No= w we need >>>>>>>> our content to be more optimized for the kind of user curiosity dr= iving >>>>>>>> their use of a chatbot/search tool: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - What percentage of prompts or AI searches are informational >>>>>>>> vs opinion forming? Are we even a competitor for grounding opin= ion based >>>>>>>> questions or only the informational ones? >>>>>>>> - How many of the interactions are two or three steps down a >>>>>>>> chain of more "specific" interactions with the chatbot and thus= no longer >>>>>>>> need "general knowledge" information from Wikipedia, but rather= the kinds >>>>>>>> of stuff that we rely on our citations to provide ? >>>>>>>> - How much are the AI companies optimizing for "sales" or >>>>>>>> "addiction" rather than for leading users to reliable content? = (I was >>>>>>>> tracking a series of informational topics about food that (on C= hatGPT and >>>>>>>> Google), kept wanting me to continue the conversation by *invit= ing >>>>>>>> me to go to local hamburger restraunts)*. Do we even have a >>>>>>>> reasonable chance to be in those searches? >>>>>>>> - How much is geolocation forcing more and more responses into >>>>>>>> "local" sources rather than "global" websites? In one dataset I= tracked, in >>>>>>>> Global South countries citations were overwhelmingly to Faceboo= k and >>>>>>>> Instagram despite more authoritative academic, news and Wikiped= ia-type >>>>>>>> sites in the same searches from the UK. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *We may need to radically change the "readable signals" on our >>>>>>>> content pages, meaning changing the Manual of Style, Editing Pract= ices, and >>>>>>>> AI enabled enrichment.* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If we are trying to market Wikipedia's content into AI interfaces, >>>>>>>> we also can't do what most AI optimization/marketing agencies woul= d >>>>>>>> suggest: writing listicle/FAQ type content that closely matches th= e >>>>>>>> user-queries that folks are giving the IA models (i.e. analysis li= ke: >>>>>>>> https://neilpatel.com/marketing-stats/trust-signals-ai-engines-rew= ard-most/ >>>>>>>> ). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We would then have to experiment with other content types, that _n= o >>>>>>>> longer look like the encyclopedia_. Or we would need to be reconfi= guring >>>>>>>> the Encyclopedic content to expose enrichments to paragraphs or se= ctions >>>>>>>> within the encyclopedia that pretty radically change editorial as= supmtions >>>>>>>> and our Manual of Style (i.e. instead of simple 1-2 word section h= eadings, >>>>>>>> like "History" we may need intent-focused headings like "What is t= he >>>>>>>> history of [x topic]?). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If we want to compete in the shifting AI search landscape -- we >>>>>>>> would need a lot more data from the Foundation on where we are suc= ceeding >>>>>>>> or not, and then consider *_radically different_ *ways of exposing >>>>>>>> our content in terms of treating RAG systems as a user that needs = correct >>>>>>>> paths to Wikipedia pages. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> However, this doesn't necessarily need to change the *human reader >>>>>>>> experience *, but would need to be about configuring the content >>>>>>>> (beyond an MCP server or Enterpise APIs) *for an AI >>>>>>>> audience/consumer experience -- *which I haven't seen addressed in >>>>>>>> any WMF publications or community conversations. Without a firm th= eory of >>>>>>>> "What kind of consumer is an AI search agent/RAG index?" and "How = does our >>>>>>>> content need to serve that AI audience?" the editing community won= 't be >>>>>>>> able to adjust its editing practices or weigh in on feature recomm= endations >>>>>>>> that make our content "AI useful". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As I have written elsewhere, I think there is a inherent audience >>>>>>>> for editing/using the Wikis organically: >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2026-06= -21/Op-ed >>>>>>>> -- but its a different question than competing "with other informa= tion >>>>>>>> sources" for AI as an audience. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 2:30=E2=80=AFPM Steven Walling via Wikimed= ia-l < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 9:52=E2=80=AFAM Erik Moeller via Wikimedi= a-l < >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 5:59=E2=80=AFPM James Heilman via Wikime= dia-l >>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> > Yah a search engine that actually gives real references that >>>>>>>>>> supports the statements in question would be amazing. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Almost like .. a Knowledge Engine. ;-) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Is the WMF building an MCP server to connect Wikipedia and >>>>>>>>> Wikidata directly to Gemini, Claude, and ChatGPT? This is a more >>>>>>>>> lightweight, backdoor way to leverage the audience of those platf= orms but >>>>>>>>> present structured outputs to AI chats for users based on Wikimed= ia >>>>>>>>> knowledge. If we did so, we could present citations within the >>>>>>>>> returned responses to users, and those platforms make it transpar= ent to the >>>>>>>>> user when they are calling a particular tool. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Steven Walling >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sadly, the only realistic path I see there would be through >>>>>>>>>> acquisition, and even if that was financially feasible, you'd >>>>>>>>>> begin by >>>>>>>>>> inheriting a lot of corporate practices that aren't really >>>>>>>>>> consistent >>>>>>>>>> with Wikimedia values. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> But perhaps there is a middle ground where Wikimedia seeks to >>>>>>>>>> define >>>>>>>>>> more clearly the terms of engagement that it wants with search >>>>>>>>>> engines >>>>>>>>>> (clear attribution, clear and correct references, calls-to-edit, >>>>>>>>>> etc.), and then finds and recognizes search partners who impleme= nt >>>>>>>>>> those. To Luis' point, that need not be done by WMF. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Erik >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], >>>>>>>>>> guidelines at: >>>>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>>>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>>>>>>>> Public archives at >>>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= kimedia.org/message/HNDPDZBBDMILF7WGMUBVJVIAZYQ7OXOS/ >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>>> wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], >>>>>>>>> guidelines at: >>>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>>>>>>> Public archives at >>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l-RusutVdil2haa/[email protected]= imedia.org/message/IUDAKJRN5EQT5CCWEEYQXKDSVXCDBXR6/ >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>> wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], >>>>>>>> guidelines at: >>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>>>>>> Public archives at >>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l-RusutVdil2iUmLTBS4g/[email protected]= media.org/message/YODBKTCLA2XJC24Y23I2SUN3PUYA4QXE/ >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>> wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], >>>>>>> guidelines at: >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>>>>> Public archives at >>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= edia.org/message/5MPMZGZ2MXLLHER3NTNUS6KHIMAXIIBD/ >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], >>>>>> guidelines at: >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>>>> Public archives at >>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= dia.org/message/QAGHRXXTGSXKVFOALBRQHP5G27NUIFDD/ >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM8Xa4x6EXUF0@public.gmane.org= g >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], >>>>> guidelines at: >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>>> Public archives at >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= ia.org/message/6RKSJMWMVUHUUVV7WGKPOCOHCN4NBQK4/ >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> James Heilman >>>> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], >>>> guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guideline= s >>>> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>> Public archives at >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= a.org/message/FRGCURSOK3KPMT3UWZFOR6Z4TMZFE7KF/ >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines >>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>> Public archives at >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= .org/message/XILTKQ2VLVFZKTY5BEYP55426JVAU5VY/ >>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org >> >> >> >> -- >> James Heilman >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines >> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> Public archives at >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= org/message/FUYVW2DYO4VKDTCOBIRAICU5KKIHXI3U/ >> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > Public archives at > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= rg/message/6M3FINLF4MVXB4O5YZWMV4ICBUTHQHXK/ > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org --000000000000afaf3f06565a0cec Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div>"My question is: What is the Wikimedia specific = business model that=20 allows our curated content to reach the humans we want to reach in this=20 new distribution environment dictated by AI interfaces like RAG and=20 slop-Apps?"</div><div><br></div><div>Don't let them dictate. We wr= ite Wikipedia like we always have, by people for people. We've never ca= red about any "business model" and we shouldn't start to toda= y. We just do our thing.</div><div><br></div><div>Todd</div></div><br><div = class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail= _attr">On Sat, Jul 11, 2026 at 11:44=E2=80=AFAM Alex Stinson via Wikimedia-= l <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">wikimedia-l@lists.= wikimedia.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty= le=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddi= ng-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hey Todd, James and Sage (referring to his re= cent post about adding video to interfaces)=C2=A0<br><br>Your comments high= light exatly=C2=A0<span style=3D"background-color:transparent">where we act= ually very much are in concensus: Wikipedia is first and foremost curated k= nowledge by humans for humans (this is the core of my essay here:=C2=A0</sp= an><a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/20= 26-06-21/Op-ed" style=3D"background-color:transparent" target=3D"_blank">ht= tps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2026-06-21/Op-ed</= a><span style=3D"background-color:transparent">)</span><div><br>I am not ar= guing that we should have AI writing, or that AI is the primary audience fo= r our content, but rather whether we are entering an era of Zero Click Goog= le, and if the big tech companies see through their vision (i.e. implementa= iton of sloppy, adhoc commercially controlled interfaces on top of the open= internet i.e.:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://blog.google/products-and-platforms/= products/search/search-io-2026/" target=3D"_blank">https://blog.google/prod= ucts-and-platforms/products/search/search-io-2026/</a>=C2=A0) we need to th= ink about=C2=A0 this as a distribution channel not an invisible enemy. We c= annot afford to miss this modality change in the same way we missed=C2=A0ot= her big changes on the internet. such as social media and the TikTokified e= nshiftification towards endless scrolling, because we had a guaranteed dist= ribution channel: Google.<br><br>Some more thoughts (and realizing that thi= s should be an op-ed/blogpost somewhere).<br><br><b>Interfaces are cheap, i= nformed curators are expensive</b><br><br>Agentic AI, Coding tools and LLMs= are making the cost of new interfaces=C2=A0<i>extremely cheap,=C2=A0</i>so= cheap that I am commissioning a complex knowledge repository for a fractio= n of the cost and time it would take otherwise. Interface projects like Wik= iProject Med's offline medical Wikipedia App, which used to take severa= l months of highly specialized software development, can now be spun up in = a long weekend with a Claude Code Max subscription. Sage's tool is a pe= rfect example of this: perfect for a small market of users, unlikely to be = a "headline" Wikimedia tactic for getting in front of users, beca= use Youtube and AI search interfaces already do this exact thing.<br><br>Wh= at is not cheap for all of the other platforms (and is often paid for by ad= s), but which we have in abundance, is motivated humans who can continue=C2= =A0curating the knowledge (and more than 25 years of experiments on facilit= ating knowledge equity focused gap filling). The questions we need to addre= ss are:<br><ul><li style=3D"margin-left:15px"><span style=3D"background-col= or:transparent">Do the curators understand the future of distribution to ot= her humans we need to be building for across multiple future=C2=A0</span>in= ternet scenerios?</li><li style=3D"margin-left:15px"><span style=3D"backgro= und-color:transparent">Do the curation practices serve diverse forms of acc= ess (languages, geographies, topics) from that distribution?</span></li><li= style=3D"margin-left:15px"><span style=3D"background-color:transparent">Do= the curators understand demand and=C2=A0</span>how<span style=3D"backgroun= d-color:transparent">=C2=A0curation choices affect distribution to that dem= and?<br></span></li><li style=3D"margin-left:15px"><span style=3D"backgroun= d-color:transparent">Can we recruit the next generation of curators who don= 't "assume" that the pageview metric is the reason we contrib= ute?</span></li></ul><b>We need to see how distribution to humans is changi= ng=C2=A0</b><div><br>Our metrics infrastructure overemphasizes our historic= al abundance of pageviews=E2=80=9480% of which were driven by Google-- with= out seeing our distribution to these other platforms. We need to=C2=A0<i>se= e the distribution</i>=C2=A0in order to make any decisions about our curato= rial practices. .<br><br>Once we understand the distribution, we will also = see that AI tools building interfaces need more than just access (i.e. Ente= rprise API or an open license and scraper access), they require knowledge f= ormatting and organization practices (i.e. markdown files, vectorized searc= h interfaces, AI skills, content chunking that makes the RAG search step ea= sier, etc) that necessarily require the content curators to change some of = their workflows and practices (emphasizing the authority of original author= s in citations, metadata on kind of "human questions" a section d= escribes, etc). Waiting for a handful of people at the Foundation to figure= out which of these=C2=A0content organization tactics are important=C2=A0 i= s just not feasible=E2=80=94we, as the curators, need to=C2=A0<i>as the cur= ators</i>=C2=A0imagine this future and implement it in our content updates = (especially when WMF's payroll relies on the nostalgic pageview-to-fund= raising business model).<br><br><b>We need a Wikimedia specific strategy fo= r the future, not copy our peers</b><br><br>Most websites are dividing the = "content curation" from the representation layer (modern headless= CMS's=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headless_content_m= anagement_system" target=3D"_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headless_= content_management_system</a>=C2=A0are increasingly the go to for other pub= lishing websites). Demanding that the Foundation (or Wikimedia projects) ma= intain our interface as the source of reader interactions is likely not sus= tainable, or consistent with the way in which knowledge curation now works = on the internet.<br><br>Our peers in textual content curation implemented r= adically different strategies 3-5 years ago that build on this seperation o= f curation and consumption:=C2=A0<br><ul><li style=3D"margin-left:15px">New= York Times doubled down on a "captive in an App" strategy becaus= e it was a pillar of their approach=E2=80=94a strategy many news organizati= ons adopted as well. This approach is highly inappropriate for the Wikimedi= a model; we have abundant research showing that our users seek "public= service utility" content from us, not timely or trustworthy content.<= br></li><li style=3D"margin-left:15px">Britanica has shifted towards an edu= cation-market-first model that allows them to build interfaces appropriate = to educational needs and garuntee a pipeline of funding.=C2=A0</li><li styl= e=3D"margin-left:15px">Reddit optimized for AI tools answering constructive= user question -- this also is not our goal, we are curators not "auth= orities" for answers.</li><li style=3D"margin-left:15px">Companies lik= e Healthline optimized for SEO optimization, which gravitates for "gen= eric assumptions of public search" instead of high quality verfiable c= ontent (I have found misinformation on healthline multiple times).<br></li>= </ul><div>My question is: What is the Wikimedia specific business model tha= t allows our curated content to reach the humans we want to reach in this n= ew distribution environment dictated by AI interfaces like RAG and slop-App= s ?=C2=A0</div></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D= "ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Jul 11, 2026 at 12:04=E2=80=AFPM James H= eilman via Wikimedia-l <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= g" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></di= v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde= r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">The bl= ue "Return to article" button works just fine. But yes thanks for= pointing out that the back button within the Google chrome browser does no= t work. Will work on fixing that.<div><br></div><div>J</div></div><br><div = class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Jul 11,= 2026 at 4:54=E2=80=AFPM Todd Allen via Wikimedia-l <<a href=3D"mailto:w= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]= ia.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m= argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left= :1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Are you talking about that godawful thing that = I just clicked on in the "wheat" article, that the back button do= esn't work on?</div><div><br></div><div>I'm pulling that out. Sorry= , but "back button works" is a basic thing of Web functionality. = I should not need to click a "return to article" button to get ba= ck where I was.</div><div><br></div><div>Todd</div></div><br><div class=3D"= gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Jul 11, 2026 at = 8:32=E2=80=AFAM James Heilman via Wikimedia-l <<a href=3D"mailto:wikimed= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]= </a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:= 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">= <div dir=3D"ltr">English Wikipedia is a conservative organization / project= as are many other large versions of Wikipedia. Many stakeholders need to b= e convinced / brought on board to make even relatively minor changes. Innov= ating within smaller versions of Wikipedia or in other projects outside Wik= ipedia is much easier. And successes can occasionally=C2=A0be brought into = the larger Wikipedias such as we did with Our World in Data interactive gra= phs...<div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat#Pr= oduction_and_consumption" target=3D"_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W= heat#Production_and_consumption</a></div><div><br></div><div>We have now ad= ded 100s of these in various languages. And they are getting thousands of p= lays a day.</div><div><br></div><div>James</div></div><br><div class=3D"gma= il_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Jul 11, 2026 at 3:2= 8=E2=80=AFPM Charles Roberson via Wikimedia-l <<a href=3D"mailto:wikimed= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]= </a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:= 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">= <div dir=3D"ltr">Wikimedia-I used to be a premium listserve=C2=A0of high mi= nded ideas about how to move the Foundation into the future. The past few m= onths it has drifted into a lot of whining about AI with no real effort to = accomplish anything or even plan to do so.<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0- Charl= es</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmai= l_attr">On Sat, Jul 11, 2026 at 1:44=E2=80=AFAM Todd Allen via Wikimedia-l = <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">wi= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"= gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20= 4,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>We sure do know what a g= ood AI strategy looks like for Wikipedia. No AI on Wikipedia.</div><div><br= ></div><div>We have not succeeded by being FaceGramTwitTube. We have succee= ded by not being like them.</div><div><br></div><div>So, same here. No &quo= t;latest and greatest". No AI on Wikipedia. Ever, for any reason, peri= od. Wikipedia is written by people for people.</div><div><br></div><div>Tod= d</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail= _attr">On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 11:09=E2=80=AFPM James Heilman via Wikimedia= -l <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank"= >[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class= =3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg= b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">What has motivated me to= spend time writing Wikipedia over the years is writing for humans. The fac= t that the content is openly licensed and the work is supported by an NGO i= s also key.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Personally i= do not feel any motivation to write primarily for trillion dollar machines= surrounded by venture capital folks hoping to make a killing. If the machi= nes want to adapt to human facing content sure.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br>= </div><div dir=3D"auto">The approaches you mention is how Healthline succee= ded, they basically have dozens of articles covering the same topic just ad= dressing it from a slightly different question.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto= "><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">J</div><div><br clear=3D"all"><br clear=3D"al= l"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature">Sent from Gmail Mobile</= div></div></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class= =3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 21:24 Alex Stinson via Wikimedia-l = <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">wi= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"= gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20= 4,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Forking this= conversation, because I don't think we have a shared framing of what w= e are competing for in a "Google" Zero landscape dominated by Cha= tBot/AI search style RAG citations (i.e. <a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.or= g/wiki/Retrieval-augmented_generation" target=3D"_blank">https://en.wikiped= ia.org/wiki/Retrieval-augmented_generation</a>).<br><br>For the last 9 mont= hs, I've been examining how civil society content should be showing up = in AI search, and there is a missing perspective in our "we will build= it and they will come" approach to Wikipedia. I don't think we ca= n wait for the big tech companies or European regulatory bodies to adopt a = different idea of how RAG should work.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Here is my take from wha= t I have been engaging with in the AIO/AEO/SEO space:<br><br><b>Wikipedia d= oesn't have content that is SEO/AEO optimized</b><br><br>Part of the pr= oblem, even if we did have an MCP server is that the models=C2=A0(at least = in my tracking), are pushing many citations away from "factual" w= ebsites, towards "authoritative" websites. This authoritative con= tent includes:=C2=A0<br><ul><li>Expert original, analysis that makes strong= claims based on facts (i.e. blog posts by authoritative companies or recen= tly published ScienceDirect articles)</li><li>Content that has been updated= recently, with the biggest "hot takes" (i.e. I have monitored a = couple of prompt pools where citations shift to newer content after 2-3 mon= ths)</li><li>Content that helps users make a decision between different cho= ices (i.e. review websites, etc)</li></ul><br>This is following Google'= s longer-term push towards "human centered and useful" content (s= ometimes called=C2=A0=C2=A0E-E-A-T an abbreviation of=C2=A0 experience, exp= ertise, authoritativeness, and trustworthiness, in SEO world).=C2=A0<a href= =3D"https://developers.google.com/search/docs/fundamentals/creating-helpful= -content" target=3D"_blank">https://developers.google.com/search/docs/funda= mentals/creating-helpful-content</a>=C2=A0<br><br>To win in an AI optimizat= ion battle -- its less about Wikipedia doing well in the keyword search ind= exes that led to our content being visible (which is why we have a reputati= on as a "fact checking" website) and more about "winning&quo= t; in the criteria for what makes a good RAG citation --- and our content f= ormat, is the exact opposite of the EAAT criteria:=C2=A0<br><ul><li>Wikiped= ia is not authoriative, but rather points to other authorities</li><li>We g= round our content in anonymity instead of named experts or instutional proc= ess/opinoin</li><li>We rarely do original analysis instead summarizing the = experience and expertise of others,=C2=A0</li><li>Alot of our content is ou= t of date, and self-aware of its gaps (i.e. maintenance tags), so also is l= ikely to be undermining its own trustworthiness</li></ul><br><b>All the dat= a points to us being used, but without an official roundup we are all=C2=A0= talking in the dark about different assumed reputation losses</b><br><br>RA= G unlike Google Search Indexing, seems to be using Wikipedia for a fraction= of a fraction of responses, favoring these other kinds of sources:=C2=A0= =C2=A0<br><ul><li>Only 5% of AI overviews have Wikipedia in them:=C2=A0<a h= ref=3D"https://ahrefs.com/blog/most-cited-domains-ai-overviews/" target=3D"= _blank">https://ahrefs.com/blog/most-cited-domains-ai-overviews/</a></li><l= i>I have access to SERanking's corpus of prompt monitoring across 5 mod= els (ChatGPT, Perplexity, Google Models and they suggest that in May ~16% o= f prompts included Wikipdia, and in their most recent month (June), ~13% of= prompts. SERankings corpus is probably the # 4 or 5 in commercial AIO data= -- so could have gaps.</li><li>Studies from earlier in the year put Wikipe= dia at about ~13% of CHATGPT citations ( <a href=3D"https://www.prnewswire.= com/news-releases/wikipedia-and-reddit-now-drive-over-25-of-chatgpt-citatio= ns-in-the-us-new-5w-research-finds--wsj-nyt-and-bloomberg-do-not-appear-in-= the-top-20-302768339.html" target=3D"_blank">https://www.prnewswire.com/new= s-releases/wikipedia-and-reddit-now-drive-over-25-of-chatgpt-citations-in-t= he-us-new-5w-research-finds--wsj-nyt-and-bloomberg-do-not-appear-in-the-top= -20-302768339.html</a> but chatgpt on average includes >20 sources in a = response, compared to googles 5-10 and doesn't expose it in the interfa= ce very well)=C2=A0</li><li>Comparable "top" Websites, like Youtu= be, Reddit, and LinkedIn tend to represent a greater % of content (in the S= ERanking data pool nearly 30% of responses had a Youtube Video cited for in= stance)</li><li>Domain specific citation pools have pretty significant diff= erences in "which" sources are being called, with Wikipedia doing= well on some prompt pools:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://generativepulse.ai/repo= rt/" target=3D"_blank">https://generativepulse.ai/report/</a></li></ul><br>= <br><b>RAG/AI search optimization focuses more on intent than keywords, and= we aren't very effective at serving intent, and we don't know wher= e our optimization options are<br></b><br>What we need is an understanding = of "which actual user reader behavior are we seeking to serve?". = In the past we were extremely lazy, because keyword search always delivered= Wikipedia as "a first". Now we need our content to be more optim= ized for the kind of user curiosity driving their use of a chatbot/search t= ool:=C2=A0<br><ul><li>What percentage of prompts or AI searches are informa= tional vs opinion forming? Are we even a competitor for grounding opinion b= ased questions or only the informational ones?</li><li>How many of the inte= ractions are two or three steps down a chain of more "specific" i= nteractions with the chatbot and thus no longer need "general knowledg= e" information from Wikipedia, but rather the kinds of stuff that we r= ely on our citations to provide ?=C2=A0</li><li>How much are the AI compani= es optimizing for "sales" or "addiction" rather than fo= r leading users to reliable content? (I was tracking a series of informatio= nal topics about food that (on ChatGPT and Google), kept wanting me to cont= inue the conversation by <i>inviting me to go to local hamburger restraunts= )</i>. Do we even have a reasonable chance to be in those searches?</li><li= >How much is geolocation forcing more and more responses into "local&q= uot; sources rather than "global" websites? In one dataset I trac= ked, in Global South countries citations were overwhelmingly to Facebook an= d Instagram despite more authoritative academic, news and Wikipedia-type si= tes in the same searches from the UK.</li></ul><br><b>We may need to radica= lly change the "readable signals" on our content pages, meaning c= hanging the Manual of Style, Editing Practices, and AI enabled enrichment.<= /b><br><br>If we are trying to market Wikipedia's content into AI inter= faces, we also can't do what most AI optimization/marketing agencies wo= uld suggest: writing listicle/FAQ type content that closely matches the use= r-queries that folks are giving the IA models (i.e. analysis like: <a href= =3D"https://neilpatel.com/marketing-stats/trust-signals-ai-engines-reward-m= ost/" target=3D"_blank">https://neilpatel.com/marketing-stats/trust-signals= -ai-engines-reward-most/</a> ). <br><br>We would then have to experiment wi= th other content types, that _no longer look like the encyclopedia_. Or we = would need to be reconfiguring the Encyclopedic content to expose enrichmen= ts to paragraphs or sections within the encyclopedia=C2=A0 that pretty radi= cally change editorial assupmtions and our Manual of Style (i.e. instead of= simple 1-2 word section headings, like "History" we may need int= ent-focused headings like "What is the history of [x topic]?).=C2=A0<b= r><br>If we want to compete in the shifting AI search landscape -- we would= need a lot more data from the Foundation on where we are succeeding or not= , and then consider <i>_radically different_ </i>ways of exposing our conte= nt in terms of treating RAG systems as a user that needs correct paths to W= ikipedia pages.<br>=C2=A0<br>However, this doesn't necessarily need to = change the <i>human=C2=A0reader experience </i>, but would need to be about= configuring the content (beyond an MCP server or Enterpise APIs)=C2=A0<i>f= or an AI audience/consumer experience -- </i>which I haven't seen addre= ssed in any WMF publications or community conversations. Without a firm the= ory of "What kind of consumer is an AI search agent/RAG index?" a= nd "How does our content need to serve that AI audience?" the edi= ting community won't be able to adjust its editing practices or weigh i= n on feature recommendations that make our content "AI useful".<b= r><br>As I have written elsewhere, I think there is a inherent audience for= editing/using the Wikis organically:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.= org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2026-06-21/Op-ed" target=3D"_blank">h= ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2026-06-21/Op-ed<= /a> -- but its a different question than competing "with other informa= tion sources" for AI as an audience.<br><br><br><br><br></div><br><div= class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 10= , 2026 at 2:30=E2=80=AFPM Steven Walling via Wikimedia-l <<a href=3D"mai= lto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]= kimedia.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style= =3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding= -left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gm= ail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 9:= 52=E2=80=AFAM Erik Moeller via Wikimedia-l <<a href=3D"mailto:wikimedia-= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a= >> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px= 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On = Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 5:59=E2=80=AFPM James Heilman via Wikimedia-l<br> <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">wi= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br> <br> > Yah a search engine that actually gives real references that supports = the statements in question would be amazing.<br> <br> Almost like .. a Knowledge Engine. ;-)<br></blockquote><div><br></div>Is th= e WMF building an MCP server to connect Wikipedia and Wikidata directly to = Gemini, Claude, and ChatGPT? This is a more lightweight, backdoor way to le= verage the audience of those platforms but present structured outputs to AI= chats for users based on Wikimedia knowledge.=C2=A0<span style=3D"backgrou= nd-color:transparent">If we did so, we could present citations within the r= eturned responses to users, and those platforms make it transparent to the = user when they are calling a particular tool.=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"ba= ckground-color:transparent">=C2=A0</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><= span style=3D"background-color:transparent"><br></span></div><div class=3D"= gmail_quote"><span style=3D"background-color:transparent">Steven Walling=C2= =A0</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q= uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2= 04);padding-left:1ex">Sadly, the only realistic path I see there would be t= hrough<br> acquisition, and even if that was financially feasible, you'd begin by<= br> inheriting a lot of corporate practices that aren't really consistent<b= r> with Wikimedia values.<br> <br> But perhaps there is a middle ground where Wikimedia seeks to define<br> more clearly the terms of engagement that it wants with search engines<br> (clear attribution, clear and correct references, calls-to-edit,<br> etc.), and then finds and recognizes search partners who implement<br> those. To Luis' point, that need not be done by WMF.<br> <br> Warmly,<br> <br> Erik<br> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/HNDPDZBBDMILF7WGMUBVJVIAZYQ7OXOS/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/HNDPDZBBDMILF7WGMUBVJVIAZYQ7OX= OS/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" 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target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div></div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/YODBKTCLA2XJC24Y23I2SUN3PUYA4QXE/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/YODBKTCLA2XJC24Y23I2SUN3PUYA4Q= XE/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div></div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/5MPMZGZ2MXLLHER3NTNUS6KHIMAXIIBD/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/5MPMZGZ2MXLLHER3NTNUS6KHIMAXII= BD/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/QAGHRXXTGSXKVFOALBRQHP5G27NUIFDD/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/QAGHRXXTGSXKVFOALBRQHP5G27NUIF= DD/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/6RKSJMWMVUHUUVV7WGKPOCOHCN4NBQK4/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/6RKSJMWMVUHUUVV7WGKPOCOHCN4NBQ= K4/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div><div><br clear=3D"all"></div><div><br></div><span class=3D= "gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_sign= ature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"= ltr">James Heilman<br>MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian</div></div></div></div></div>= </div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/FRGCURSOK3KPMT3UWZFOR6Z4TMZFE7KF/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/FRGCURSOK3KPMT3UWZFOR6Z4TMZFE7= KF/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/XILTKQ2VLVFZKTY5BEYP55426JVAU5VY/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/XILTKQ2VLVFZKTY5BEYP55426JVAU5= VY/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div><div><br clear=3D"all"></div><div><br></div><span class=3D= "gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_sign= ature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"= ltr">James Heilman<br>MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian</div></div></div></div></div>= </div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" 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