Re: Re: NAND review

Ross Younger wrote:
>> Nick Garnett wrote:
>>     
<snip>
>> What is the typical life of a
>> block? 10000 erases? A developer may conceivably replace the kernel
>> 10,000 times, but in a deployed product i doubt this will happen. So i
>> say forget about wear leveling for this case.
>>     
>
> I have been thinking about lifespan and how likely we are to come across
> worn-bad blocks. The Samsung chip on the EA 2468 board specifies 100k
> write/erase cycles per block and data retention of at least ten years, which
> seems to be pretty typical for NAND parts, and comparable to most NOR parts?
>   
yes, but 20 years data retention (Spansion NOR).
>   
>> I'm assuming here that a NAND block
>> goes bad because of writes and erases, not reads and age. So once the
>> image has been successfully written, it should be readable forever.
>>     
>
> This is my understanding as well.
>   
mine too.
>   
>> Bad block are important. But a simple linear log structure should be
>> sufficient. When reading/writing if the BBT says the block is good,
>> use it, if it is bad, skip it.
>>     
>
> Properly NAND-aware filesystems take both kinds of bad blocks in their
> stride; there's no point in adding the complexity if such a mapping if
> you're using such a filesystem.
>
> Even with something simpler, factory-bad blocks are straightforward: as you
> say, one can simply linear-map them into oblivion in the driver at the cost
> of extra time complexity *on every NAND operation*. (I add the emphasis
> because I expect the overhead will add up fast if the NAND is heavily used.)
>
> Worn-bad blocks are harder; you can't ever add one to the mapping, because
> you'd have changed the in-flash address of everything above it.
>
> I've been thinking about this sort of question in the context of a simple
> layer to make NAND look like NOR for RedBoot, and have had an interesting
> idea which I'm going to propose on this list when I've written it up.
>
>
>   
>> The rootfs is a more interesting issue. Linux is very unlikely to boot
>> into a useful system without its rootfs. I see two options here. You
>> could tftp boot using a initramfs loaded to RAM to boot into linux
>> with a minimal system to perform a rootfs on NAND installation. Or
>> redboot has to somehow put the rootfs into the NAND partition.
>>     
>
> You could also embed your entire rootfs into the kernel image as a cramfs.
>
>
>   
>> This leads to three things:
>>
>> 1) Full read/write support for the FS in Redboot. For NOR we normally
>>    have only read support.
>>     
>
> Do you mean jffs2?
>
> At the moment my YAFFS layer is fully read-write, but I could add a
> read-only switch if this was thought to be useful?
>
>   
>> 2) mkfs functionality.
>>     
>
> I don't know about other filesystems, but YAFFS always scans the NAND on
> mount, and automatically does the Right Thing when asked to mount a
> fully-erased array. (My RedBoot patch already includes logic to erase a nand
> partition.)
>
>   
The same with JFFS2 (after a bugfix in my case).

Kind regards,
Juergen