Re: Ars Technica article

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 14:40:35 -0700 Pete Wright [email protected] said

>  What direction change are you talking about?
> > As alluded to earlier; the importation of so much Linux code. On one
> > hand; yes it shortens the time-to-implementation. But in the broader
> > scope; it's more work (and time) in the long term for it's removal,
> > and replacement -- assuming that day ever arrives.
> 
> this misses the key point that there is literally *zero* people being 
> paid full-time to implement graphics drivers for FreeBSD, whereas at 
> both Intel and AMD developers are being paid to develop drivers for the 
> linux kernel.  They are also getting access to documentation and other 
> resources on how these chips are implemented which I am not certain we 
> have access to either.
??? why ???
This has *always* been what's said in response to th(is|ese) topics.
Look I'm not saying this to be a bitch/whiner/troll, and I already have
enough bikesheds to last a lifetime, thank you. But why do we not have
at *least* the documentation? Is this something I can purchase, and
*donate* to the project? Is it so cost prohibitive? If so, can a pool
be created to acquire the needed funds?

> 
> as such it seems like a good opportunity for us to leverage this work 
> that is being done for the linux kernel (warts and all) to get better 
> coverage to modern GPU's on FreeBSD.
> 
> > The Kpi is also a kludge, and with it comes a performance hit.
> How is it a kludge, and what is the performance hit in real numbers?
It's *perceptible*. I don't need to cobble up a script, or install a
benchmark tool to tell be when my finger is burnt, and I don't need
one to see the impact, when I experience it. :) I meant *l*Kpi above;
BTW. :)

> Regarding perf numbers there is no data to back this up because there 
> has not been enough work to get the testing & benchmarking suites 
> working in a reliable state on FreeBSD.
See (just) above.
> 
> As a counterpoint, I periodically run OpenBSD which as gone in a 
> different direction of implementing their own drivers for i915.  I would 
> say subjectively the performance with their implementation is several 
> orders of magnitude less performant than FreeBSD's - but you know what, 
> that is OK!  They have different objectives and approaches which is 
> totally healthy IMHO.
Agreed. Who doesn't like having choices? It also helps add for perspective.

> 
> We just need to be honest that their are trade offs that will be taken 
> with either approach - and perf is one of the most obvious and noisy areas.
Sure, and *that/those* arguments almost *always* end up in much
hair-splitting -- very *non* productive.

> 
> >
> > Is there really that little interest in the Graphics area/dept. that
> > what we've currently been using couldn't be sustained/improved?
> >
> 
> I would say yes!
> 
> Until this work began we had support for older i915 graphics but that 
> development had stalled while hardware most definitely had *not* 
> stalled.  The situation that we are at now is a direct result of this - 
> someone stood up and got things working, entropy took over and support 
> was added and improved.
> 
> There is nothing preventing others from standing up and implementing 
> non-linux derived graphics drivers though!  I would just suggest taking 
> a moment to understand how much of a lift this work is from a dev 
> perspective, let alone support after bits land.  At the end of the day 
> most people just assume graphics to work so they can get on with their 
> real work they need to accomplish.
I fully appreciate what you're saying here, and I couldn't be more grateful
for any, and all the time, and dedication put into this project. I'm
simply *dumbfounded* that everyone *else* can manage *native* support.
But we *can't*. I'm *really* interested in discovering *why* so I can
perhaps initiate *change*.

> 
> Not trying to start a flame, just offering perspective from things i've 
> observed through this process...
And that perspective is *greatly* appreciated, pete. :)

> -pete
> 
> -- 
> Pete Wright
> [email protected]
> @nomadlogicLA

--Chris

--
UNIX is like Ice Cream. It comes in several flavors.
But in the end, it's still Ice Cream.


_______________________________________________
[email protected] mailing list
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-x11
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[email protected]"