Re: Ars Technica article

On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 12:42:45 +0000 Grzegorz Junka [email protected] said

> On 13/04/2020 21:46, Chris wrote:
> >
> >> Thankfully, Linux code can't enter FreeBSD base because of different 
> >> licensing.
> >>
> >> I hope you don't advocate for re-implementing drivers for FreeBSD? 
> >> What about NVidia drivers that aren't even distributed with source 
> >> code? Surely, they provide binary packages for FreeBSD, but without 
> >> support for Vulkan for example. Without any documentation of the 
> >> hardware ports how this could be even achieved?
> >>
> >> Besides, I am happy when I see a vendor or developer supports Linux, 
> >> apart from the usual Windows or Mac, not even mentioning FreeBSD. 
> >> Many don't even differentiate beyond Linux, listing support for 
> >> FreeBSD under Linux and other distro sections!
> >>
> >> I think we need to be pragmatic about it. Neither AMD nor NVidia will 
> >> provide FreeBSD drivers and FreeBSD can't implement those drivers, 
> >> either for objective reasons (man power) or because it's not feasible 
> >> (NVidia). If we can reuse existing drivers that the manufacturers are 
> >> releasing and updating frequently, and only focus on the 
> >> compatibility layer, then why not?
> > Agreed. The challenges are many. How? How have we managed so far? Yes.
> > We've been (seemingly) forced to import video blobs for some (G|A)PUs. 
> > But
> > what of the others? What of the French driver project; Nouveau? How have
> > they managed? Granted it *too* is Linux based. But they got there 
> > *somehow*.
> > Would it be a worthy venture to start a project like that that either
> > imports && recobbles that project into "native" code? Or? I've been at 
> > this
> > for over 50yrs, and I've amassed more hardware than you could imagine. 
> > Need
> > to get FreeBSD on a Mac SE dsdd? NP. a PDP? Oh wait, that was done 
> > l-o-n-g
> > ago. But I've got several models available -- just in case.
> > I'm serious. I'm willing to participate in whatever capacity I can. But
> > IMHO importing Linux stuff isn't really "keeping ahead of the curve".
> >
> 
> Are you trying to encourage developers to start a new project aimed at 
> reimplementing major, sometimes closed, graphics drivers, for BSD, or 
> even just FreeBSD? A project that would cost them lots of time and no 
> pay but possibly a gratitude from happy users? If so, a comment to a 
> post in a list group might not be sufficient. The idea would need to go 
> out, developers evangelized, people convinced... As they say, the best 
> leading is by example :-)
Of course! Wasn't it obvious? ;-)

> 
> Jokes aside, you might be overestimating what Nouveau was able to 
> achieve. First of all, they reverse-engineer. That means a working 
> driver might only appear on the market after the hardware has been 
> released and reverse-engineered. Sometimes long after, if at all.
> 
> Secondly, they only implement the minimum that's required to make them 
> usable, which means no CUDA and no Vulkan support. Also look at this 
> matrix <https://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/FeatureMatrix/>, especially 
> all the mostly and todos for the already quite old chipsets.
> 
> Lastly, Nouveau is mostly driven by RedHat's corporation money 
> <https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Nouveau-2020-Early-Status>.
> 
> A project of this size needs a commercial sponsor just to keep up with 
> the pace of changes. Or a foundation. FreeBSD already sponsors some work 
> in the graphics stack but surely that wouldn't be enough for 
> re-implementing drivers, so a new one?
So what you're basically saying; is that there really isn't that much interest
in FreeBSD by any users worldwide. So any chance of attracting developers, and
or capitol is pretty much -1.
Depressing. :(

> 
> From my point of view, accelerated graphics I mostly want to use on the 
> desktop and I don't really care if it's coming from Linux or elsewhere 
> as long as it properly supports all the latest features of my hardware 
> so that my heard earned cash I spent on buying it is utilized. On the 
> server I don't even use a graphic stack, I have IPMI or SSH, so none of 
> the Linux parts affect it.
In all honesty, I build, deploy and run almost exclusively server images.
I only use a light DE for convenience on development on larger projects.
But still...

Guess it's time for me to start badgering some Intel && AMD employees. :)

Thanks! :-)
> 
> --
> GrzegorzJ

--Chris


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