Re: Future Direction of GNU Hurd?

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On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 11:46 PM Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide <[email protected]=
>
wrote:

> > The fundamental problem with the Hurd is the same as it has always been=
:
> it
> > is a solution looking for a problem. Hurd advocates have not been able =
to
> > clearly articulate what problem is being solved and why it is a problem
> > that users should care about or be concerned about. This has been the
> state
> > of the Hurd *for 30 years*.
>
> This is false.
>

Oddly enough, I have learned to appreciate the (usually) German habit of
combatively absolutist assertions on subjects that are fundamentally
matters of opinion. It took me a while to become accustomed to it, but it
was one of the patterns I came to enjoy in my interactions with Jochen
Liedtke. I also appreciate the irony in this, since one of my failings is
that I am prone to the same pattern of interaction.

Your response, unfortunately, does not provide any counter-example. I asked
what problem Hurd attempts to solve that *users* should care about. Most of
your examples are technical rather than user objectives. The exception that
I see (the audio confirmation pop-up) is a security anti-pattern; it is in
direct opposition to what we know about human factors design in security
systems. The browsers are also getting this wrong, so perhaps they should
not be our design guide.

In my opinion, a 30 year effort should not be an attempt to solve a
*small* human
problem. The justification for this type of effort demands a *large* human
problem. Sometimes, humans do not recognize such problems until they are
presented with a solution, which is why I framed my question as users
"should" care about it.

The Hurd may have one now, but it did *not* have one the last time I had
contact with the project. The claimed goal at that time was *provably* (in
the formal mathematical sense) unachievable. It would be wonderful if that
has changed.


Jonathan



> I wrote clearly in 2011 where the Hurd solves real problems:
>
> http://www.draketo.de/light/english/free-software/some-technical-advantag=
es-of-the-hurd
>
> And nowadays SystemD proved that the features that the Hurd makes easy
> are so compelling that they make it possible to get distributions to
> sign on to constraints that would have been an absolute no-go before.
>
> Reading that I expect your next question to be: "Why doesn=E2=80=99t it g=
et
> adoption then?"
>
> The short of it:
> - USB
> - Audio
>
> For Audio I hope to be able to build a sound-translator that allows
> starting programs without sound access and when the program tries to
> access the sound device popping up a desktop notification and/or sending
> wall note that asks the user to allow access.
>
> That=E2=80=99s what the browsers do, but on an OS level. You no longer ne=
ed to
> either trust applications not to send your microphone stream to a remote
> server at any time or create dedicated users and start programs either
> trusted or untrusted, and different from Windows you actually get
> notifications when something tries to access audio (instead of silently
> failing to work).
>
> > I am reluctant to say something so discouraging, but when a project
> > has not moved forward substantially in 30 years
>
> This is false, too.
>
> I used to write the Month of the Hurd before 2013 when I refocussed my
> contributions on the Freenet Project to combat pervasive surveillance,
> and I saw substantial steps forward every month. And this kept going.
> We=E2=80=99re talking about a kernel, so steps might not be graphical, bu=
t it
> moves.
>
> A short story: When I was at FOSDEM a few years ago and Samuel held a
> talk about the Hurd, I saw the looks of people who thought "Oh, Hurd
> again didn=E2=80=99t move". So I asked a question: "What changed in the p=
ast 3
> years?"
>
> What followed by Samuel was a brief excerpt of huge improvements, one of
> which was "you can now use subhurds without root access" which means
> that in the Hurd there was no more need for anything dockerlike.
>
> I don=E2=80=99t think that many people kept the feeling that Hurd isn=E2=
=80=99t moving
> after getting the answer.
>
> I can=E2=80=99t really blame you for thinking that the Hurd didn=E2=80=99=
t move, because
> we don=E2=80=99t really communicate that well, and partly I=E2=80=99m to =
blame for that
> because I don=E2=80=99t find the time in recent years to write updates. B=
ut the
> Hurd is moving substantially.
>
> If you=E2=80=99re still not convinced, please have a look at the News of =
the
> Hurd up to 2013: https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/news.html
> That=E2=80=99s when I was still writing news entries.
>
> Best wishes,
> Arne
> --
> Unpolitisch sein
> hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein
> ohne es zu merken
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 11:46 PM Dr. Arne=
 Babenhauserheide &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex">&gt; The fundamental problem with the Hurd is the s=
ame as it has always been: it<br>
&gt; is a solution looking for a problem. Hurd advocates have not been able=
 to<br>
&gt; clearly articulate what problem is being solved and why it is a proble=
m<br>
&gt; that users should care about or be concerned about. This has been the =
state<br>
&gt; of the Hurd *for 30 years*.<br>
<br>
This is false.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Oddly enough, I have lea=
rned to=C2=A0appreciate the (usually) German habit of combatively absolutis=
t assertions on subjects that are fundamentally matters of opinion. It took=
 me a while to become accustomed to it, but it was one of the patterns I ca=
me to enjoy in my interactions with Jochen Liedtke. I also appreciate the i=
rony in this, since one of my failings is that I am prone to the same patte=
rn of interaction.</div><div><br></div><div>Your response, unfortunately, d=
oes not provide any counter-example. I asked what problem Hurd attempts to =
solve that <b>users</b>=C2=A0should care about. Most of your examples are t=
echnical rather than user objectives. The exception that I see (the audio c=
onfirmation pop-up) is a security anti-pattern; it is in direct opposition =
to what we know about human factors design in security systems. The browser=
s are also getting this wrong, so perhaps they should not be our design gui=
de.</div><div><br></div><div>In my opinion, a=C2=A030 year effort should no=
t be an attempt to solve a <i>small</i>=C2=A0human problem. The justificati=
on for this type of effort demands a *large* human problem. Sometimes, huma=
ns do not recognize such problems until they are presented with a solution,=
 which is why I framed my question as users &quot;should&quot; care about i=
t.<br></div><div><br></div><div>The Hurd may have one now, but it did <i>no=
t</i>=C2=A0have one the last time I had contact with the project. The claim=
ed goal at that time was=C2=A0<i>provably</i>=C2=A0(in the formal mathemati=
cal sense) unachievable. It would be wonderful if that has changed.<br></di=
v><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Jonathan</div><div><br></div><div><br>=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
I wrote clearly in 2011 where the Hurd solves real problems:<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.draketo.de/light/english/free-software/some-technical=
-advantages-of-the-hurd" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.dr=
aketo.de/light/english/free-software/some-technical-advantages-of-the-hurd<=
/a><br>
<br>
And nowadays SystemD proved that the features that the Hurd makes easy<br>
are so compelling that they make it possible to get distributions to<br>
sign on to constraints that would have been an absolute no-go before.<br>
<br>
Reading that I expect your next question to be: &quot;Why doesn=E2=80=99t i=
t get<br>
adoption then?&quot;<br>
<br>
The short of it:<br>
- USB<br>
- Audio<br>
<br>
For Audio I hope to be able to build a sound-translator that allows<br>
starting programs without sound access and when the program tries to<br>
access the sound device popping up a desktop notification and/or sending<br=
>
wall note that asks the user to allow access.<br>
<br>
That=E2=80=99s what the browsers do, but on an OS level. You no longer need=
 to<br>
either trust applications not to send your microphone stream to a remote<br=
>
server at any time or create dedicated users and start programs either<br>
trusted or untrusted, and different from Windows you actually get<br>
notifications when something tries to access audio (instead of silently<br>
failing to work).<br>
<br>
&gt; I am reluctant to say something so discouraging, but when a project<br=
>
&gt; has not moved forward substantially in 30 years<br>
<br>
This is false, too.<br>
<br>
I used to write the Month of the Hurd before 2013 when I refocussed my<br>
contributions on the Freenet Project to combat pervasive surveillance,<br>
and I saw substantial steps forward every month. And this kept going.<br>
We=E2=80=99re talking about a kernel, so steps might not be graphical, but =
it<br>
moves.<br>
<br>
A short story: When I was at FOSDEM a few years ago and Samuel held a<br>
talk about the Hurd, I saw the looks of people who thought &quot;Oh, Hurd<b=
r>
again didn=E2=80=99t move&quot;. So I asked a question: &quot;What changed =
in the past 3<br>
years?&quot;<br>
<br>
What followed by Samuel was a brief excerpt of huge improvements, one of<br=
>
which was &quot;you can now use subhurds without root access&quot; which me=
ans<br>
that in the Hurd there was no more need for anything dockerlike.<br>
<br>
I don=E2=80=99t think that many people kept the feeling that Hurd isn=E2=80=
=99t moving<br>
after getting the answer.<br>
<br>
I can=E2=80=99t really blame you for thinking that the Hurd didn=E2=80=99t =
move, because<br>
we don=E2=80=99t really communicate that well, and partly I=E2=80=99m to bl=
ame for that<br>
because I don=E2=80=99t find the time in recent years to write updates. But=
 the<br>
Hurd is moving substantially.<br>
<br>
If you=E2=80=99re still not convinced, please have a look at the News of th=
e<br>
Hurd up to 2013: <a href=3D"https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/news.html" re=
l=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/news.h=
tml</a><br>
That=E2=80=99s when I was still writing news entries.<br>
<br>
Best wishes,<br>
Arne<br>
-- <br>
Unpolitisch sein<br>
hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein<br>
ohne es zu merken<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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