Re: OpenBSD Install Goal

S.A.R. wrote:
> OpenBSD,
> 
> To those concerned, I've been a Unix/Linux geek for around 10 years. In
> that time period I have used most of the free BSD systems, and all the
> major names in Linux.
>
> In that time OpenBSD has grown to a point. Granted with experience
> installing OpenBSD isn't much effort, but why should it really involve
> as much effort as it does?

So, what do you find difficult?

> I mean to point out, there is no reason for OpenBSD to not have a simple
> to use and follow ncurses install setup like FreeBSD, where the user is
> guided through the process, and steps to make the installation as easy
> and straight forward as possible.

It *IS* extremely straight forward and simple to get done what you want to
get done.  It isn't color.  It doesn't use the PC arrow keys.  Big freaking
deal.

> There seems to be even to this day some sort of mentality in believing
> that doing the installs on Unix systems is some sort of right of
> passage, the pain, and eliteness one needs to accomplish in order to
> uses these systems, and if someone can't get past the install then they
> shouldn't bother using the system.

OpenBSD does not have this attitude.
Considerable time and effort is spent by the developers to make sure the
system Just Works without tweaking.

HOWEVER, you must be at least so high [hand held about three feet off the
ground] to ride this ride.  OpenBSD is about getting work done, not pretty
colors on the installer.

The only part of the OpenBSD install that is "difficult" or painful is the
disk partitioning on some platforms.  On the other hand, after having dealt
with the partitioning system on a LOT of other OSs, I'll take OpenBSD's
lean simplicity and its trust that I might have half a brain in my head and
can figure out what I REALLY want to do, rather than a system which assumes
they know what I want to do...

> Just because someone can install OpenBSD for the very first time, I
> would hope doesn't really qualify them for much of anything other then
> getting the system installed and is hardly a right of passage.

'zactly.
And if you can't follow a very straight forward set of instructions and
some very straight forward questions, you don't belong on this ride.  You
won't be able to handle OpenBSD.  You don't belong installing systems for
direct contact with the Internet.

> Perfect point in case, did you know the Gentoo developers didn't want to
> make installing Gentoo any simpler because of this type of thinking, and
> attitude, but they eventually let up and created an installer for
> Gentoo. This type of thinking is simply utter foolishness.

I don't think you will ever see OpenBSD following the Rice Boys of the Unix
World.

> I hope one day soon OpenBSD will adopt a nice ncurses setup similar to
> something like FreeBSD with ease to it.

and the two or three boot floppies?  I very much hope not.
I recently did a FreeBSD install.  I didn't see this "ease" you talk of.  I
did see colors that looked like they came out of a child's picture book,
but they didn't seem to help me install it as I wished.

> As OpenBSD grows there simply is no reason, or logic to keeping around
> such an archaic method of installation it now uses.

Bullshit.

If:
* 1 floppy installs
* No nonsense installs
* Full control installs
* Fast installs
* No Mouse Needed installs
* Almost identical install process on platforms ranging from Alpha to
Zaurus, on HW that ranges from graphically intense systems to serial consoles.
* Customizing the install process to one's needs, not a set of assumptions

is "archaic", I'm hoping OpenBSD stays "archaic" for a very long time.

> Please keep me informed if you will, I'd love to hear the thoughts, and
> ideas on this possible progress.
> 
> OpenBSD is developed by volunteers, 10 years of development, don't you
> think with all this man power and ability, after all these years it's
> time to evolve a little?

Let's do what many major Linux distros (and Solaris) does, and totally
change the installer for every release.  That's evolution!  God forbid that
experienced users should be able to just get to work, after all, every
release should require them to spend hours figuring out what changed, just
to install the system!  After all, the functionality is irrelevant, it's
the bright primary colors that put a child's book to shame that matters!

> Remember this is an OS, and part of the process of creating one is the
> evolution in making it a more simpler, and productive tool.

With talk like that (buzzwords, bullshit, and no content), you have a great
career ahead in management.

> I remember a day, and there still seems to be one in the Unix world that
> thinks in order to run these systems one must spend their life tinkering
> with it.

Name examples of this "tinkering" in OpenBSD...

> We must rethink our ideas with these systems that they are tools to help
> us, not us having to work on them all the time in order to get them to
> do something, otherwise where is the progress and productivity in this?

Name examples of this "work on them all the time" in OpenBSD...

> I remember a day when I personally sat around playing most of the time
> trying to get something to work, rather then getting work done, those
> days must end, and the tools must finally emerge as just that, TOOLS to
> help us accomplish something, not sitting around trying to.

Why don't you spend a lot less time polishing your oratory and more time
learning what you are talking about...

You have the NERVE to mention Gentoo and then accuse OpenBSD of requiring
too much tinkering?

You are confusing a the colors and assumptions the installer makes about
your needs with the ease of use of the installer, and then generalizing it
to the OS.

Yes, I could probably hand an Ubuntu CD or some other Linux distros to my
dad, hand him a carefully selected PC, and I'd bet in a while, he'd have a
running system.  He'd have no idea what he did.  And he'd probably be
stumped about what to do next.  If I handed him an OpenBSD CD, he'd
probably get stuck at the disklabel part of the install.  HOWEVER, if I
taught him about disk partitioning, IP networking, explained to him X, SSH,
NTP and serial terminals, and handed him a copy of FAQ4, I think he'd have
no problem getting OpenBSD installed, AND he'd be well on his way to using
the system well and safely.  Note that only the installation details there
are OpenBSD specific, the rest is stuff you have to understand to use ANY
Unix-like system safely and effectively.  Once you ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND
those other issues, the installer is absolutely trivial.  Yes, OpenBSD
doesn't make assumptions about what you want to do, it expects you to know.

Yes, there is a learning curb.  I'll even grant it's a "curb", not a
"curve".  You will need to step up to it and lift your foot a few inches to
get over it.  All things considered, I'd rather that people do that, then
to have the system guide them through a "mystery install", where you have
no idea what really happened or what went wrong.

While I have worked with Unixes of various types (anyone remember Cromix,
running on a multi-Z80 system with a 68000 supervising the Z80s?), OpenBSD
was the first Unix I really feel that I have "mastered".  I accomplished
more in three days with OpenBSD than I did after YEARS of dabbling with
Linux (two of those days were spent fighting with the partitioning step..I
picked a REALLY bad first machine... :)

So, I kinda go the other direction, looking from the simplicity of
OpenBSD's install process to looking at the bloated, obscure and secretive
install processes of most other OSs, including FreeBSD, Linux (six install
CDs, and it STILL didn't load 'locate' by default?  What DID it load?),
Solaris 9 ("let's give 'em a web browser during the install!"), Solaris 10
("Let's not give them the web browser during install"  Well, that, at
least, was a step towards sanity), Windows (why did it decide the only
Windows accessible partition on my laptop was to be called "E:"??).

I rather like that the first time I EVER touched the power switch or the
insides of a Sun system, I had OpenBSD running on it two hours after I got
it home.  It was the same install on the serial terminal it was on the i386
or mac68k or ...  The time was spent learning the MACHINE, not the OS.

If you have taken any offense at anything I have said, believe me, it was
no where near as offensive as your message was.  One does not need to use
strong words to be offensive.

Nick.