RE: [MF:Apes] You guys are assholes (via /contact form)

I feel the need to respond to such a venomous attack on all freethinkers who
contribute to this mailing list.

If Nick DeAngelo's comments and behavior are indicative of "HARD WORKING GOD
FEARING LOYAL PATRIOTS", then we are all in trouble.  It's fascism such as
this that we all should be concerned about.  As is most of the country, this
fellow has become irrational to the point of hurling insults instead of
proving his argument using sound logic and/or deductive reasoning.  For
those of you who are not alarmed by this and other irrational behavior going
on in this country right now, I hope that somehow you come to grips with
reality.  People like this are a threat to true patriotism and democracy.
Without rationality, we are all doomed.

Unfortunately, there are many people like Nick out there who are programmed
to believe whatever they are told without thinking critically about the
issues.  There is a lot of anger and hurt in this country that is being
directed at other near-defenseless countries (when compared to our military
superiority) in an effort to vindicate what so many people are feeling.

It is generally accepted that the world would be better off without Saddam
Hussein around, but here in America it has been our custom (and law) that
each person accused of crimes be given at least due process under the law.
In Saddam's case, the law has been completely circumvented and America has
become judge and jury of the rest of the world.  It frightens me to think
about how the rest of the world must feel towards our role.  We are not
invincible.  All empires have failed eventually and history has recorded it
for us.  We too shall fail unless we have the courage to act without
violence.  Let's not delude ourselves by entertaining the notion that we
cannot be taught a lesson by the rest of the world.  Every bully has his day
and if the rest of the world suddenly decided we are a threat to all
countries that oppose us, then I firmly believe we could very well be put in
our place.  There is enough firepower in the rest of the world to make us
think long and hard about the consequences of our actions.  Imperialism is
no longer something we can point out in the rest of the world without being
hypocritical.

As a patriot, I feel it is my solemn duty and responsibility to pay due
vigilance to what our government is doing and to voice concern when I
disagree with them.  It is every American's responsibility to think before
reacting and to look at the long-term consequences of creating more violence
in the world.  It is also our duty to carefully and diligently research the
actions of our government and nation and to look beyond what government
influenced media tells us to think.

There is a first amendment right to bear arms in this country.  I do not
condone violent overthrow of our government and I am not implying that in
any way, but this constitutional right was put in place for one reason and
one reason only: to take back our government in case of tyranny.  Thomas
Jefferson believed that we should have a revolution in this country every 10
years or so, whether we think we need it or not.  Our forefathers envisioned
the right to bear arms as a protection against tyranny.  If the people are
armed, then we can always do something about our government when it fails to
represent the will of the people.  However, I would like to suggest an
alternative to violent revolution.  The main idea being espoused here is
that we can do something about a government who does not represent the will
of the people.  I believe that open rhetoric and respectful dialogue about
these issues can accomplish the same goals (thank you, monkeyfist.com).
When a marginally elected leader acts as if he has a mandate from the people
and effectively shuts out all media who would ask the hard questions, then
it's time to think about whether or not our leaders are actually
representing their own interests or us.

The largest protest ever organized across the globe did not deter our
government from proceeding towards the goal of regime change and that should
alarm everyone.  Acting against reason and the will of the people isn't very
democratic.  As Americans, many people who do not have a voice in their
government depend on us because we do.  They depend on us to be their voice
against tyranny and injustice.  And it is for this reason that I vehemently
oppose the policy and attitude of our government on the Iraq issue.  If our
government has proven anything by the violent occupation of Iraq, they have
proven that no one really needs to make violence a last resort.  We condone
violence by our actions and we claim to be opposed to terrorism.  The goal
of terrorism is "shock and awe" just like what we attempted to make Saddam
and his regime feel.  We have become the thing we hate most if violence is
our only answer to those who disagree with us.

Peace to all,

Hugh Redmon

-----Original Message-----
From: bonobos-admin-4GNy1lrxftmrG/[email protected]
[mailto:bonobos-admin-4GNy1lrxftmrG/[email protected]]On Behalf Of Kendall Grant Clark
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 9:19 AM
To: nick.r.deangelo-SrL5qGCgbQJGMJYXDe/[email protected]
Cc: bonobos-4GNy1lrxftmrG/[email protected]
Subject: [Bonobos] [MF:Apes] You guys are assholes (via /contact form)


>>>>> "contact-form" == contact-form  <contact-form-4GNy1lrxftmrG/[email protected]> writes:

  contact-form> The bunch of crap you are spouting is a bunch of
  contact-form> bullshit.

Well, that's certainly true and uncontroversial: crap is generally thought
of as a kind of bullshit (well, bullshit in its generic, rather than
species-specific sense; but I'm *sure* that's what you meant.)

                Why don't you admit to the rest of the country
  contact-form> that you are just cowards.

Probably for the same reasons that you haven't admitted to your friends
that you wear adult diapers.

                This war in Iraq is
  contact-form> justified.

Hmm, let's see. What kinds of justification for a war are there? There's
legal justification, which comes from the UNSCR -- which this war doesn't
have -- and there's justification by self-defense, but no one *seriously*
thought of Iraq as an immiment threat to the US; at least, there's no
evidence for that. And no WoMD either, apparently.

Oh, and there's moral justification, according to just war theory. Oops,
this one is a loser there too. Wars must be, among other things, matters
of last resort, and this one isn't.

                You guys only think of your selfs. Your a bunch
  contact-form> of self-center self-richous assholes.

Yes, that's probably true enough; but so what?

                Sadam and his regiem
  contact-form> are responcible for more than a Million deaths. The
  contact-form> Sanctions did not kill those men, women and
  contact-form> children. Sadam and people like you who support him kill
  contact-form> all those people.

Let me see if I can follow this... I'm (partially?) responsible for the
evil acts of Hussein because I supported Hussein? And I supported Hussein
because I opposed the sanctions regime? You don't even have the *extremely
crazy* party line down right. According to the extremely crazy party line,
I'm (partially) responsible for those deaths because I supported Hussein
(?), and that emboldended him (or something) to resist the otherwise
deposing effects of the sanctions, which plainly did kill lots of people,
mostly children.

Look, it's obvious that sanctions weakened the ability and will of
ordinary Iraqis to resist Hussein -- what other point is there to imposing
sanctions, except to weaken people? Given that all too predictable and
predicted outcome, which obviously tended to reinforce Hussein's power in
Iraq, it was people and governments which supported and imposed the
sanctions which helped keep Hussein in power. As I think was their
intention all along. Preserve the status quo, no matter how many children
it kills. Sec of State Albright admitted as much on 60 Minutes.

I'm sorry you have such trouble understanding things like causality and
responsibility, but there's no reason to be nasty about it.

                You and Noam Chomsky are no better than
  contact-form> the terrorist you support. You are all vermin that need to
  contact-form> be extinguished.

Wow. I suspect that if you really are in the military, this is some kind
of breech of military codes of conduct. Are military personnel really
allowed to use DOD computers & email systems to mail threats like this to
American citizens? I wonder how the FBI or the Inspector General's Office
would react to these threats you've made?

"Vermin that need to be extinguished" -- incredible. Well, no one ever
accused the US military of subtlety.

                All the crap that is coming out of your
  contact-form> mouths, reminds me of communism. So you bunch of EVIL
  contact-form> ASSED COWARDS better shut your mouth and leave us decent
  contact-form> HARD WORKING GOD FEARING LOYAL PATRIOTS ALONE!!!

So, tell me: what other parts of the Constitution are you opposed to?
You're clearly not fighting to uphold anyone's right to free speech. If my
*speech* (which is all I've done so far about this war) is a threat to
"HARD WORKING GOD FEARING LOYAL PATRIOTS", then obviously these so-called
PATRIOTS, including you presumably, are viciously opposed to the First
Amendment.

So why fight?

                If you
  contact-form> don't like it take your 60's ass and leave this GOD
  contact-form> FEARING COUNTRY TO THE PATROITS. BECAUSE WE DON'T NEED
  contact-form> YOUR EVIL SPOUTING CRAP IN THIS COUNTRY YOU LEFT WING
  contact-form> SOCIALIST FOOLS.

No, it's clear that *you* do need people like me; otherwise, who would
inspire you to these wondrous rhetorical and logical heights of
self-expression?

                Noam Chomsky and you are all traitors to
  contact-form> this GOOD COUNTRY. You should all be given the traitors
  contact-form> welcome!!!! GO TO HELL WERE YOU ALL BELONG. GOD BLESS THE
  contact-form> USA!!!! WERE PATRIOTS ARE WELCOME AND YOU AND NOAM CHOMSKY
  contact-form> ARE NOT!!!!!!!

And where spell-checkers are Yet Another Communist Plot (to say nothing of
syntax, grammar, orthography, common sense, logic, or reasonableness).

I really hope for your sake, Nick R. Deangelo, that someone has played a
trick on you, sending this insulting, unprofessional and maybe even
illegal email, including threats, from your account while you weren't
looking.

If not, you better hope that I can't easily find an email address or
contact number at the FBI or the DOD Inspector General's Office; if I can,
I will be reporting your harassment forthwith.

Have a nice day.

Kendall Clark
--
Jazz is only what you are. -- Louis Armstrong
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