Re: Take Down the Rebel Flag

All -

I got a reply from Joe Fortune, and I started to respond, but I don't
think I'm going to.  I think it's just not worth my effort to follow up
with him.

Anyway, this is what I started to send before I grew weary of it.

Niel

On Tue, 15 Apr 2003, Joe Fortune wrote:

>   First off I was not excusing slavery. You took my words and bent them,
> very unprofessional. You can't complain about one countries wrongs when
> other countries are doing the same.

Oh, can't I?  Seems like we do it all the time.  For example, our
government complains about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction while
ignoring Israel's.  Granted, that's a bad example, because the Bush
administration is known for its hypocrisy.

> There is still slavery today, yet you
> are debating an extinct problem.

I am not debating whether slavery is good or bad.  You're the one who
excused American slavery by saying that other countries did it.

You're correct on one thing, though: whether American slavery was
excusable or not is not the point.

> Second I was not complaining about the
> British flag flying over others territories. I meant noone says that the
> British flag represents slavery even though they also had, even before the
> confederacy, slavery. Also I didn't say slavery was right as you portrayed.
>
> >>The second counterpoint is that, although the United Kingdom's past is not
> free from slavery, the Union Jack is not routinely used to symbolize an
> era in which racial oppression was the norm.
>
>     There was so era of racial oppression, there was always and still is
> slavery today.

> >>Even if the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery (and of course it
> had *everything* to do with slavery)
>
>     The civil was clearly fought over political power, which yes did include
> slavery, but that wasn't half the reason. The southern states were losing
> voting rights in congress.

Really?  *Losing* voting rights?  Like the ones that granted
3/5-of-a-person status to slaves for purposes of congressional
apportionment, without any right to vote?  What about *the slaves'* voting
rights?

>     Finally I'm not talking about any "rebel" flag of racism. Im talking
> about the original Confederate flag. I don't care if the KKK tried to
> perverse the spirit of the flag, It will always have its original meaning.
> Furthermore, the confederate flag represents a freedom and the southern
> land, no more. It does not represent the sins of the people or the wrongs
> they did. It just represents the land and the idea of freedom. It is no more
> than a second American flag. To people who wave the flag today (with the
> exception of KKK), the confederate flag does not represent slavery, there is
> no more slavery here. The 11 stars represent the states plus Kentucky and
> Missouri.

> >>Confederate battle flag has more in common with the Nazi swastika, which
> is used to symbolize the neo-Nazi movement.
>
>     Once again the nazi movement is not comparable. Those are two different
> subjects: slavery, racial cleansing.

They are exactly the same subject.  You just said slavery has *nothing* to
do with it, and I agree with you.  It's not about slavery, it's about the
use of a symbol to terrorize and oppress people.

-- 
Niel Bornstein     +1 404 784 0696     niel-eVhvBAtfTHk423YV9hPXO9/[email protected]
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