Re: Re: Freedom to Spew

> The denial of service angle is more direct than are willing to admit yet, as
> both elements of the comparison are means of communication.  A DOS attack on
> monkeyfist.com would end it's ability to serve it's prime public function,
> the dissemination of information, in exactly the same way that absconding
> with the entire printed run of a college newspaper would end it's ability to
> disseminate information.

I like this, especially when I look at the taking of the whole print run in
terms of what Bij noted as (metaphorically) shouting down somebody in one
venue, as opposed to in ALL venues.  The problem with taking the entire run
of the paper is not that Horowitz is stifled in this one venue (God knows --
and only God knows why -- he has many others...) but that the *newspaper*
itself -- all its contributors and its "corporate" (in the classical not
business sense) editorial voice -- is silenced in its ONLY venue

> 
> You're warming up to the truth when you discuss scale.  Think about scale in
> terms of barriers to expression.  Then learn to resist sophistry and you'll
> really have something.

This last bit is just really patronizing.

> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: Bijan Parsia <bparsia-vEoVa6Jh+/J4piUD7e9S/[email protected]>
> To: "Pete O'Such" <[email protected]>
> CC: bonobos-4GNy1lrxftmrG/[email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Bonobos] Re: Freedom to Spew
> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:17:35 -0500 (EST)
> 
> On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Pete O'Such wrote:
> 
>>    I've never understood the charge of "stealing"
>>    free papers. Presumably I can take as many copies
>>    of a free paper as I want? I can take the whole
>>    stack if I have urgent need for massive amounts
>>    of papier-mache material?
>> 
>> You are discussing a denial of service attack.
> 
> Interesting way to put it. One I definitely handn't thought of. Still not
> *stealing* per se, though. Er...and presumably only a denial of service by
> analogy, as taking newspapers isn't interrupting a *service* but taking
> *objects*.
> 
> Do these differences make a difference? Maybe, maybe not.
> 
> If I mange to get something on slashdot with the express purpose of
> bringing down a server via the Slashdot effect, I've instigated a denial
> of service attack, yes? But, it's probably legit. Now, IIRC, we explicitly
> have laws against certain forms of DOS (I'd guess you'd have to have both
> intent and a certain kind of means -- not sure how a broken spider would
> be counted). Now, other kinds of means may result in the same lack of
> service, but, as in the slashdot effect case, be permitted. E.g., if an
> anon ftp server has a very low simultaneous use set, and no timeout policy
> (and *say* so), then my sitting on the the connections will result in loss
> of service to others. But it's not (legally) a denial of service
> attack. It's not even (morally) a denial of service attack. It's being a
> pig in a permitted way. The server owns might *change their mind* and thus
> *change thier policy*, but given the policy, they're screwed. We might
> call this a "scalability problem">
> 
>>  I think you'd feel a bit
>> differently if someone applied your "logic" to the residents of
> 64.6.45.65,
>> especially since they are about ten revisions behind the current version
> of
>> Apache.
> 
> I take your point, but I'm not sure you've taken mine. I've never denied
> that taking the paper prevents people from getting one. That would be
> insane. That's the *point*. I've denied that it's theft. I think it's
> called theft to stigmatize it, which I don't see as a good thing.
> 
> Again, if we have expansive notions of protecting speech (as some do),
> then the taking of the papers and burning them may be a form of speech. A
> vital, unique form of expression. Not one I particularly care for, but I
> don't care for the particular expression of Horowitz's ideas either.
> 
> Notice that the charges of theft are explicitly designed to bring in the
> power of official authority against the protesters -- literally to censor
> them. There are *other* was to combat their action (distributing the
> papers by hand, for example).
> 
> Cheers,
> Bijan Parsia.
> 
> 
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