Re: Israel policy

On Mon, 24 Sep 2001 [email protected] wrote:

> The idea that none of the terroist groups in Palestine wish to see an 
> end to Israel is laughable.  Many of them have this as their ultimate, 
> if not immedeate goal.

Well, note the difference between "see an end to Israel" and "Wanting to
drive Jewish Israelis out of the Middle East, or Christians and Jews out
of "vast regions of Asia and Africa"". I admit I'm treading a confusing
line, but hey, *I* didn't start it. :)

There's something deeply worrisome about his specific rhetoric, but you're
aboslutely right that I've not quite nailed it in a clear way.

>  Even if this is not true, the almost year long 
> Al-Asqua Intifada, constant anti-Israel and anti-Jewish rhetoric and 
> propoganda, and apparent loss of an entire generation of children to 
> this propoganda does not make many want to trust organization that say 
> they do not want to destroy the state of Isreal.

Also, I do take a difference between "wanting" and "having as a clear
goal". And, it's not just the rhetoric, but the direct actions of the
Israelis that make it very hard to "trust organizations that say...". But
of course, if we *don't* trust such organizations, how on earth do we
nuture non-destructive of Israeli groups?

Plus, it's not clear to me that it's necessarily wrong to oppose the
notion of Israeli as a *Jewish* state, per se (i.e., as opposed to a
secular, "non-partisen" state). *Of course*, if that *entails* support of
persucution or harm or second class status to Jewish residents, it's a
non-starter. 

> (just as it makes it 
> hard for many Palestinians to believe that Israel is not out to destroy 
> them)  Thus is the problem.  What can Israel feasibly do in order to 
> both protect the safety of its citizens in the short term,

Including non-Jewish ones?

> its 
> existence and the long term, and the rights of the palestinians that 
> live there?   Furhter, if they gave in to every demand, even right of 
> return, do you think that that would bring lasting peace to the region? 

Twixt every and none there is *some* middle ground, I hope. Israeli is a
state with as much legitimacy as a state can have, so I hold that demands
for that state to simple cease to exist are unreasonable.

> (exluding the peace taht i am sure would exist if israel were wiped 
> out)

Of course.

> Would doing so be right? (i.e. are all Palestinian claims 
> reasonable and accurate, whereas none of Israel's are?)  

I'm sure there are unreasoanble Palestinian claims and reasonable Israeli
ones.

Again, I don't see that it's one or the other.

Back to the original issue, and note that this hasn't gone "live" yet so
I'm still soliciting input, do you agree that there's something wrong with
that passage in Bush's speech? Do you have a better way to express that
wrongness?

Cheers,
Bijan.