Re: bush's racial slur

On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kendall Clark wrote:

> On Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 10:37:51PM -0500, shadowman-IfOL7F/[email protected] muttered something about:
>
> > I agree with Kendall.  Bush's remark is a racial slur and
> > think he has clearly illustrated the point.  He has defended his
> > position with logic while others have attacked HIM and NOT his position.
>
> To be clear: the piece was co-authored (with Niel Bornstein contributing
> very relevant research on the Times/Safire coverage of the issue earlier
> this fall) with Bijan; while we often collaborate on most MF stuff, this one
> was specifically the result of some IRC conversations we were having on
> Thursday.
>
> [stuff snipped]
>
> > Ultimately, the conflict in Afghanistan IS a "conflict of civilizations".
> > No one seems willing to admit that.  We make it appear that it isn't by
> > supporting Northern Alliance troops esssentially getting them to do our
> > work for us.  I admit that we needed their intelligence on the Taliban and
> > the terrain to find our way around, but look how long it took for us to
> > finally put troops on the ground.
>
> For the record: I don't buy the conflict of civilizations thesis -- at
> least, not Samuel Huntington's version of it, which is the dominant one
> post-911. And I don't buy it for mostly straight Edward Said reasons, which
> is to say, Huntington's thesis is one of those grand historical sweep things
> that sounds plausible, if it ever does, until you start trying to make one
> or another of the relevant facts fit within it.

i didn't mean to imply that it's JUST a conflict of civilizations, it is
this amongst other things.  let me explain.  the U.S., as a civilization,
lives by the the rule that capitalism is king and technology is a tool for
advancing that kingdom into every part of the world that is too weak to
defend itself against the onslaught of cell phones and gas-guzzling SUV's.
eventually, a policy like this is bound to encounter a culture that
doesn't believe such things are necessary and that they would be better
off without such amenities, pointing to the evils our government inflicts
upon innocent people by propping up oppressive governments who would
prefer to starve their own citizens and pocket any U.S. dollars coming
their way.

take Afghanistan, for example.  it became quite clear to U.S. officials
that these people would be much better off with cell phones and the more
aid we provide them, the more products they can buy from us.  and if we
can't control their existing governmetnt, we'll replace it with one who
like us.  to the U.S., the world is a system of little colonies that are
made up up of potential customers.  most of the middle east tends to
resent western influence on their cultures.  the ones who don't resent the
U.S. are the ones pocketing
all the dough and tend to be a minority who happen to own all the weapons
in the country.

when i say "conflict of civilizations" i mean that the conflict arises
from from our imposing "our" civilization on a civilization that doesn't
want it.  that poses a conflict.

>
> But, more importantly, one of the post-911 MF pieces I did was on the
> illegality of our war on Afghanistan, one which I continue to oppose. Maybe
> I'm stupid, but, as I've only half-joked on this list before, I missed the
> memo that proved that al Qaeda and the Taliban were so co-equal that
> deposing the one meant attacking the other.

i don't think you are stupid :-) in fact, i partially agree with you.  i
think we should depose all right-wing governments, including our own.

>
> To say nothing of two further very clearly difficulties the U.S. has
> ignored: 1) starving and bombing the primary victims of the Taliban is
> deeply problematic; 2) whatever a person might have done -- with or without
> CIA backing and support -- in Afghanistan during the Soviet war there to
> have landed on Osama bin Laden's mailing list (for that is all "al Qaeda"
> is, in toto), the U.S.'s only justification, *in the absence of specific
> evidence, even if only strongly circumstantial, of guilt*, for the U.S. to
> attack, imprison, try-by-tribunal, or execute a so-called member of al Qaeda
> is guilt by association, and that's no justification at all.

we believe in the democratic process, but just not for other people around
the world who don't agree with us.  sounds like a gestapo tactic.

>
> That is, imagine you were fighting with the CIA, Afghans, and bin Laden to
> oust the USSR from Afghanistan, and your name ended up in bin Laden's
> database. Then imagine you went home to the Sudan or Yemem to resume your
> life as a tailor or farmer or shoemaker. You occasionally attend political
> meetings, and at some of these, very anti-American sentiments are expressed,
> sentiments you share, but ones you've never acted on. And that's the sum
> total of what you've done since leaving Afghanistan; and yet now the US
> gov't wants to try you as a terrorist. This is *insane* and probably far
> more likely than we realize. There is simply no public evidence (I very much
> doubt there is any private evidence, nor *could there be*) that all "members
> of al Qaeda" are or have aided or abetted terrorists. And yet the policy of
> the U.S. gov't is to see every person in bin Laden's database, and every
> person who's "aided or abetted" any of those persons, either killed or
> imprisoned.
>
> [more snippage]
>
> > Apropos Bush's racial slur:  If I thought that I had offended the
> > population of a country who hung their asses out to help us defeat
> > al-Qaeda, I would apologize most unreservedly. (unless I really didn't
> > care what they thought which is what got us into this in the first place).
>
> To say nothing of the persons whom you've slandered by using a racial slur
> who are citizens of the country of which you are highest elected official,
> some or many of whom may well have voted for you.

you just illustrated my point, exactly.


regards,

hugh
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