To a large extent, we have been "talking" past each other. You have been making important points that I agree with as if I did not agree with them. And I have been making other points that you may or may not agree with.
You are probably right about "falsehood," in the sense that some might interpret me as saying that it was a deliberate falsehood. I meant "mistake" or "something that is not true."
Let me give you an example of that. As you may know, Occupy Wall Street decided to send a small group of marchers to Washington DC. They left yesterday. About 2 hours ago, they came to the spot on Rte 27 where our group holds its vigil every Saturday morning. We and many others were out to greet them.
There "advance person" got there about an hour early and we were talking. A Goan woman who was walking from the train came up and asked him what was going on and what the OWS was all about. He listed four things in the following order: Anti-war. Economic inequality. The environment.
This is clearly not what Ray Cook's article would have led a reader to expect. My reading of Cook was that he said they were only about economic inequality.
That said, what is the point that I made? Simply that OWS is multifaceted, and very much environmental in focus among many other things. Does it understand the history and culture of Indian groups? I agree with you, no way on that--but many of its participants seem willing to learn. (Obviously, within many limits, as you have ably pointed out.)
And I then pointed out another possible ending to Cook's story--one that I see as reasonable given the story, though maybe not given the culture and history from which it springs. This is that in the story, the kid who kills the snake could be an allegory to the youth in the OWS movement.
If you see the OWS as only concerned with economic inequality, that interpretation will seem wrong to you. And there may be aspects of the culture from which it springs that make it seem bizarre. But as a poet and thus a storyteller, I think it fits within a reasonable interpretation or version of the story.
very best
sam
-----Original Message-----
From: Hunter Gray <[email protected]>
To: SycamoreCanyon <[email protected]>; bearwithoutborders <[email protected]>
Cc: marxist <[email protected]>; Redbadbear <[email protected]>; newgreencanada <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, Nov 10, 2011 7:20 am
Subject: [Redbadbear] Native Studies (was the Iroquois serpent legend)
Accusing Ray Cook of a "falsehood" isn't accurate at all, Sam. You are a far more sensitive guy than that indicates and have a fine grasp of the English language. I "say that politely." I am not trying to put you down. You consistently do make a real effort to understand. And there are other non-Indians in our List neighborhood who also make that effort.
The "distribution of wealth and income", as you put it, certainly seems to me to be the biggest piece by far of the Occupy agenda. And that, given the circumstances of most of the Occupy participants, isn't difficult to understand.
You have to look at, and at least somewhat understand, hundreds of years of very sanguinary history -- marked by the systematic decimation of Native people and the seizure of almost all Native lands and resources -- to say nothing of the many ill-starred and fortunately unsuccessful assimilation "policy" efforts. And most Anglo Americans today don't give a damn about Indian people, their values, or their concerns. And never have. There are, and actually always have been, many Anglo exceptions to this. But even many well meaning non-Indians can't understand that Native people, societies, and cultures are not anachronisms and museum exhibits -- and that Native America doesn't fit neatly into any "western" urban industrial ideologies. Indians, Blacks, Chicanos et al. know far more about "white America" than the other way around. It's really no wonder that a great many Natives see these intra-Anglo American conflicts as civil wars in another country.
I don't think most of the Occupy people are interested in Indian concerns by any long stretch. I don't think they're hostile to those but they simply don't know and as individuals have generally made no effort to grasp and comprehend. Their interest in "the health of the Earth" should have led -- and can still lead -- to some genuine efforts to understand how indigenous people learned ages ago how to live in reasonable harmony with the Earth and with themselves both within and between our tribal nations.
As I indicated, I -- and a significant number of Native people -- have made major efforts to develop a genuine understanding of Native America in non-Native settings. I've previously discussed my many years of teaching in that regard. And as a social justice organizer -- my primary vocation -- I've worked with people "of the fewest alternatives" from all sorts of racial/ethnic and cultural and tribal backgrounds. And I have done so pretty successfully, I think. And, of course, I continue right along that trail. But when it comes to developing a depthy and realistic sense of Native values and issues among Anglo Americans, well -- it's a tough pull. But, again, a pull worth making on a keeping on, keeping on basis.
My Native father, a fine artist and professor, worked throughout his life on behalf of Native people and Native tribes. (And he also worked with all sorts of other people.) He often remarked that the toughest question asked by young Indians was "How can I take on some of the white man's ways and still remain an Indian and a Navajo" [or a member of another of several tribes.]
And my father would respond, "There is no easy way. It's never a perfect balance. Each of us has to work that out in our own way. But most of us do." I've been asked that question many times and my response follows that of my father.
As the Kiowa author, Scott Momaday, put it so well in his classic work, House Made of Dawn: "They have assumed the names and gestures of their enemies, but have held on to their own, secret souls; and in this there is a resistance and an overcoming, a long outwaiting."
When Bruce Hartford came here to our home in 2005, not long after your pleasant visit, Sam, he did a very long interview for Civil Rights Movement Veterans. [He's its webmaster, of course.] The interview took most of the day and I've referred to it as my "Movement Life Interview." In its concluding stages, there were these from me:
"I took an Anthro course and we had a good professor, and he talked about "marginal man," he was talking basically about half breeds, to use a term I don't use, but I'll use it right now. People who were on the margin of things. But the reality of the thing, — and he wasn't saying this in a denigrating way, — he knew all about my background, knew my father and everything else, but the point I'm making is that I think the people who are in that kind of a position are sometimes in a position to do certain unique things.
The reason we're in Idaho is because of a great, great, great-grandfather, whose name is John Gray. He was half Mohawk and half Scottish. He was a leader of the Iroquois fur hunters in the Far West in the first part of the 19th century, — came into the West in 1816 with a 16 year old Mohawk wife, left in the late thirties, came back again in the early 1840s. Gray's Lake in Idaho, Gray's Hole valley, Gray's River, all named for him. His basic winter camp is right behind this house, up half a mile. That's why we're here and that's why we're in this very house. He's the family culture hero. He killed five Grizzly bears in one fight while a Jesuit priest sketched the whole thing.
Bruce: I won't tell my Greenpeace friends that story.
Hunter: Well, I'm a hunter, but I'm getting more gentle as the years pass. But the point is that in a study of John Gray, done decades after that, some of the most astute people studying the fur trade came to the conclusion that his great contribution was representing the Indians very, very effectively. No Mine Mill organizer, no Wobbly walking-delegate, could ever do a better job. But at the same time, he could communicate with the whites. You see what I mean? And he could bridge that.
Bruce: He could bridge cultures.
Hunter: Yeah, and that was probably his greatest single contribution. And I'd like to feel that somehow I've been able to do that. I've worked with people of all kinds, what I have seen is a common humanity. I can't escape that, it would be impossible for me even to hate people. I certainly couldn't hate on the basis of race. I'm not sure I could hate anyway. And I sense that you're very much in that mold.
. . .
So basically, I go back to the grassroots people, back to the concept of self-determination, of democratic social movements. But I like the idea of people being able to work together. And ultimately, I think we're all going to have to work together if we're going to save this wretched world. And I think we're going to see movements come that learn from the mistakes of what's gone before. Every damn movement you can point to has been built on the wreckage of preceding movements.
Bruce: And the reason you're stressing everybody work together was that there was an element of some Black power advocates who said whites should not be involved in the Civil Rights Movement.
Hunter: That's right, yeah, which made no sense, particularly if those so-called whites had risked their lives. In my case, it's kind of an interesting situation, with a white parent and an Indian parent. In that sense, I'm half and half. I move back and forth and all sorts of things. You know, I could go to the Navajo reservation and fit in very nicely. A lot of people know me. I could go here, I could go there.
So I've got a white side and an Indian side. If you have to ask where does the loyalty go, I'd say the ultimate loyalty goes to the human race, but probably the immediate loyalty goes to the Native side. In other words, I stand with the Indians. But I'm also quite aware that there have always been plenty of people who helped Indian people who haven't been Indians. "
http://hunterbear.org/HUNTER%20BEAR%20INTERVIEW%20CRMV.htm
So I, and certainly other Native people, will keep at it in our own way. But Ray Cook has stated something very important -- candidly and honorably.
Non-Indians, and especially Anglo Americans, should listen carefully to what he and other Natives of like mind are saying.
And then they should act constructively -- and soon.
In Solidarity,
Hunter Bear
HUNTER GRAY [HUNTER BEAR/JOHN R SALTER JR] Mi'kmaq /St. Francis
Abenaki/St. Regis Mohawk
Protected by Na´shdo´i´ba´i´
and Ohkwari'
Check out our Lair of Hunterbear website with a vast
amount of social justice material: www.hunterbear.org
See A Little Family Stuff (Wolfskin and other Native things: http://www.hunterbear.org/wolfskin.htm
And see this on the new, expanded and updated edition of my book,
Jackson Mississippi -- the classic and fully detailed account of
the historic and bloody Jackson Movement of almost 50 years ago:
http://hunterbear.org/jackson.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected] ; [email protected]
Cc: [email protected] ; [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: [BearwWthoutBorders] [SycamoreCanyon] Re: the IroquoisTwo-Headed Serpent Legend
This is not what I see him saying, though. If that is what he were saying, I would agree with him.
He starts out with a falsehood--that the occupations are only about the distribution of wealth and income.
His story then does not consider what I consider to be a reasonable goal to hope for--that these kids can start the process of healing the earth.
-----Original Message-----
From: Hunter Gray <[email protected]>
To: Friends of Hunter Bear <[email protected]>; SycamoreCanyon <[email protected]>
Cc: marxist <[email protected]>; Redbadbear <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, Nov 9, 2011 6:55 pm
Subject: Re: [BearwWthoutBorders] [SycamoreCanyon] Re: the IroquoisTwo-Headed Serpent Legend
I think Ray Cook is much on target. For the most part, Sam, Native people and their struggles have been consistently ignored by much of Anglo America, including the various historical waves of Anglo social justice protesters. And, when they haven't been ignored by such, it's simply that those particular Americans have been attacking Native interests, especially treaty rights, sovereignty, land, resources -- and more as well. As a consequence, I doubt if there are many Indians at all at Occupy. As I say, it's two different worlds. For a long time, some of us in the Indian world have tried to be bridge-people but successes re the Anglos have been minimal -- and our loyalties, of course, always lie in the Native world. Many Blacks and Chicanos have been more open to Native causes -- and with some Native reciprocity.
Best, H
HUNTER GRAY [HUNTER BEAR/JOHN R SALTER JR] Mi'kmaq /St. Francis
Abenaki/St. Regis Mohawk
Protected by Na´shdo´i´ba´i´
and Ohkwari'
Check out our Lair of Hunterbear website with a vast
amount of social justice material: www.hunterbear.org
See A Little Family Stuff (Wolfskin and other Native things: http://www.hunterbear.org/wolfskin.htm
And see this on the new, expanded and updated edition of my book,
Jackson Mississippi -- the classic and fully detailed account of
the historic and bloody Jackson Movement of almost 50 years ago:
http://hunterbear.org/jackson.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected] ; [email protected]
Cc: [email protected] ; [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: [BearwWthoutBorders] [SycamoreCanyon] Re: the IroquoisTwo-Headed Serpent Legend
I had read those posts of yours indeed, with great interest.
My point on this is appreciative of that which I understand--but is also raising the point that Cook (and perhaps others) may be misinterpreting the occupation movement. As we all know, the early days of a movement are hard to "read," and I claim no special insight into this one. But there are clear and evident tendencies in it that are strongly environmental and spiritual in various ways, and that may reach forward in time to becoming the "Native boy" of the story.
And in some areas, there seem to be Indian participants from what I hear--though I do not know much about that.
-----Original Message-----
From: Hunter Gray <[email protected]>
To: Bear Without Borders <[email protected]>
Cc: Redbadbear <[email protected]>; SycamoreCanyon <[email protected]>; marxist <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, Nov 9, 2011 3:54 pm
Subject: [SycamoreCanyon] Re: the Iroquois Two-Headed Serpent Legend
Ray Cook is a well known Mohawk scholar and writer. His point is obviously that the Whites -- or Americans -- are fighting over money, having already taken most Native lands and resources. That obviously exemplifies the nature of the two-headed Serpent and its mushrooming greed that eventually climbs to the skies and leads each of the serpent's heads to attempt to consume the other . The Native boy has a Vision, goes to the [very powerful] clan mothers, fashions the means of deliverance and carries that out successfully by slaying the serpent, cutting open its belly, freeing all that It has eaten. The serpent gone, balance and harmony are restored. The symbolism should be pretty clear.
Yesterday, after I posted the piece, Reber commented on RBB: "I received this while in a classroom substitute teaching. The regular teacher's assignment was sadly inadequate to fill the time and had no hooks in it for me to talk about. So I read them the story and had a discussion. The students, especially the 2 Indians (Zuni and Taos), liked it. But almost none saw, without prompting, any meaningful analogy."
I wrote a rather long two-piece follow-up on RBB which you may have missed. My basic point, drawing on years of teaching, is that it's very tough to convey Native values and concerns to non-Indians -- two very different worlds -- but it can be done to some extent by solid teaching over time, if the non-Natives are willing to listen.
I did comment that, with some notable individual exceptions, I haven't noted much interest at all in Native values and concerns on any of these discussion lists. Haven't seen much at all, frankly, from any of the left or liberal groups.
Best, Hunter
HUNTER GRAY [HUNTER BEAR/JOHN R SALTER JR] Mi'kmaq /St. Francis
Abenaki/St. Regis Mohawk
Protected by Na´shdo´i´ba´i´
and Ohkwari'
Check out our Lair of Hunterbear website with a vast
amount of social justice material: www.hunterbear.org
See A Little Family Stuff (Wolfskin and other Native things: http://www.hunterbear.org/wolfskin.htm
And see this on the new, expanded and updated edition of my book,
Jackson Mississippi -- the classic and fully detailed account of
the historic and bloody Jackson Movement of almost 50 years ago:
http://hunterbear.org/jackson.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected] ; [email protected]
Cc: [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Redbadbear] A traditional Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) opinion of Occupy
I found this a very interesting story. Like all such stories, its interpretation does not seem to be easy. A key part of the interpretation is:
Then young boy would come and address the Clanmothers with a vision how to destroy the Serpent
Who or what is this young boy? Is it the kids in OWS? The writer gives little attention to this possibility, probably due to knowing little about OWS and perhaps also having an "observer" perspective rather than the perspective of an organizer.
Kind of like some apocryphal tales I have heard about some "Old Left" types who dismissed the sit-ins of 1960 as not really being class struggle.
But I do not know Ray Cook or his works. So I may be missing something.
HUNTER GRAY [HUNTER BEAR/JOHN R SALTER JR] Mi'kmaq /St. Francis
Abenaki/St. Regis Mohawk
Protected by Na´shdo´i´ba´i´
and Ohkwari'
Check out our Lair of Hunterbear website with a vast
amount of social justice material: www.hunterbear.org
See A Little Family Stuff (Wolfskin and other Native things: http://www.hunterbear.org/wolfskin.htm
And see this on the new, expanded and updated edition of my book,
Jackson Mississippi -- the classic and fully detailed account of
the historic and bloody Jackson Movement of almost 50 years ago:
http://hunterbear.org/jackson.htm
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