Fwd: : DAVID MCR ****Leaders of Russia, Ukraine, Germany and France Plan New Minsk Peace Talks
"'Hunter Gray'
[email protected] [marxist]" <
[email protected]>
Tue, 10 Feb 2015 10:36:22 +0000
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RE SENT
-----Original Message-----
From: David McReynolds [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2015 01:14 AM
To: 'lee'
Subject: Re: ****Leaders of Russia, Ukraine, Germany and France Plan New Mi=
nsk Peace Talks
Lee, one reflection I want to send this, hastily as it is written on my par=
t, to my "Edgeleft" list. Many of whom may have gotten it already from an e=
arlier posting tonight. The situation in Ukraine is too tragic not to speak=
out while there is time. My cats are fine - thanks for asking.
David
On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 3:04 AM, David McReynolds <[email protected]=
om> wrote:
I don't mind at all and will add some comments of my own. Much of the Ameri=
can media (and many us in general) see the Ukraine in terms of the old Sovi=
et Union, either leaping to a defense of Russia or to total hostility to it=
(as if we are refighting the Cold War).
There is no sense of history. Not even a longer range sense of European his=
tory in which at one time Sweden had an empire and Russia was a minor power=
(some of the spices used in Swedish cooking reflect the old trade routes f=
rom Asia, across Africa, to Sweden), or the times when Poland occupied much=
of what is now Ukraine and Russia.
We have simply ignored the fact that long before Stalin, Napoleon burned Mo=
scow, that there are no natural barriers of mountains or broad rivers that =
protect Russia. We generally forget or never knew that the Soviet Union los=
t 27 million people in World War II and had every city and village, every d=
am, airfield, railroad station, and factory destroyed on a line from Lening=
rad in the North through the outskirts of Moscow (if you fly in, I suspect =
you will still see the anti-tank emplacements between the airport and Mosco=
w) to Stalingrad in the South.
Stalin no doubt wanted to bring his version of "socialism" to Eastern Europ=
e but he also wanted buffer zones. We have forgotten that Finland, which wa=
s allied with Hitler, and had troop in the field against the Soviets, was l=
et alone after the war (though Stalin took some important bits of Finnish t=
erritory) because it was truly neutral, that the Soviets left Austria (whic=
h had been under four power post-war rule) once it was agreed Austria would=
be truly neutral. We have forgotten (or never knew) that Stalin did not in=
corporate East Germany
into the Soviet Bloc until the West rejected the Soviet effort to unite Ger=
many as a neutral, demilitarized state.
And it is abundantly clear that US and British commentators have no sense o=
f the desolation of the former Soviet Union after the collapse of the USSR.=
The spread of AIDS, the appalling rate of alcoholism, the loss of national=
identity, the demoralization of the veterans from the Afghan War. If Putin=
is popular it is because he has given Russians some sense of pride.
There is much about Russia which I deplore - often bitterly. The homophobia=
of Putin, the corruption of the government, the rule by oligarchs (not so =
different from here or Britain), the lack of a vital and democratic civil s=
ociety.
But to see in Putin a man who is trying to rebuild the old Soviet "empire" =
is worse than folly. To fail to grasp the fear Russia has of NATO (why in G=
od's name didn't we dissolve NATO when the USSR collapsed?) - all of this d=
rives me nuts. To hear, day after day, the distortions by our commentators,=
the failure even to remember something as simple and basic as the fact the=
party which was ousted in the coup (a corrupt party - both main parties we=
re and are) had its voter strength precisely in the Eastern part of Ukraine=
.
We must not give up - there are no "good guys" in this bloody mess which ha=
s taken over 5,000 lives. But in God's name let us realize that Germany and=
France want to achieve a settlement (as I think Putin does) but the US war=
party seems determined to see more dead and dying.
Peace,
David McReynolds
New York
former chair, War Resisters International (and on this matter expressing my=
own views, not those of any organization)=20
On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 6:03 PM, lee <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi David,
Hope you don't mind my occasional nitpicking.
BBC reporting ain't what it used to be.
Here are a couple of gems I picked up out of this potpourri :
From amidst the analysis of Jonathan Marcus, BBC Diplomatic correspondent i=
n Munich :
"The level of frustration many Western countries feel against Russia's poli=
cies has been palpable. Mr. Hammond (UK Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond) f=
or example branded President Vladimir Putin as "some kind of 20th Century t=
yrant."=20
Doesn't seem to fit with other reporting today as in Tyler Durdin.....the q=
uotes by Germany's SP party leader Gabriel, M. Sarkozy in France, etc.
End box contained some remarkable statements :
"More than a million Ukrainians have fled their homes since April 2014, whe=
n the rebels seized a big swathe of the Luhansk and Donetsk regions followi=
ng Russia's annexation of Crimea."
More correctly, those millions fled mainly due to continuous shelling by ro=
ckets and missiles of their cities and towns on the part of the Ukrainian m=
ilitary -- not as seems implied by rebels seizing land. Land which in any c=
ase was not seized but defended by it's inhabitants. Additional reasons for=
flight might have been lack of food and water in some areas, cutting off o=
f administrative support (like pensions) by Kiev government, sudden homeles=
sness due to shelling, fear on part of women and children whose husbands ha=
d gone off to join the militias.=20
Finally.....
"Much of the recent fighting has been focused on the strategic town of Deba=
ltseve. The Ukrainian military said on Sunday that rebels had made "numerou=
s attempts" to storm government positions in the area over the past 24 hour=
s, having subjected them to "massive shelling".
"It said rebels had sustained heavy losses, though the claim could not be v=
erified. The past day of fighting also claimed the lives of 12 Ukrainian so=
ldiers and 12 civilians, according to Ukrainian and rebel sources."
The above is another way of saying the the rebels have pretty well surround=
ed the Ukrainian troops in another indefensible situation. Whatever the los=
ses of the rebels may have been, the army will sustain much greater losses =
even though some will manage to get out and save their skins, something tha=
t the rebels let or even encourage the ordinary recruit do pretty easily.
Meanwhile, there's the Tribune de Gen=C3=A8ve -- which my neighbor kindly p=
uts on my door knob each morning. Forces me to realise how a "normal" -- an=
d rather conservative -- Swiss paper reports things. It's been very consist=
ant. This morning brought a large photo of Porochenko in Munich, holding ha=
lf a dozen "passports of Russian soldiers killed in the Donbass". Russian p=
assports must be fairly easily found in Ukraine, and yes, Russians fighters=
have been killed there. Many, often of Ukrainian background, have come and=
joined up. So -- until someone finally manages to get a photo of those rep=
orted thousands of Russian troops and their equipment, half a dozen passpor=
ts will have to do.
Also -- in the accompanying TdG article this morning, for the first time I =
noted Angela being described as an "ex-East German". We may be seeing that =
more often......
And so it goes. How are your cats?
Peace, Lee
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<br></p>
<div><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Verdana" size=3D"2"></font> </div=
>
<div><br></div><div>RE SENT</div><p><br></p>
<div><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Verdana" size=3D"2"></font> </div=
>
-----Original Message-----<br><b>From:</b> David McReynolds [mailto:davidmc=
[email protected]]<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 10, 2015 01:14 AM<br=
><b>To:</b> 'lee'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: ****Leaders of Russia, Ukraine, Ge=
rmany and France Plan New Minsk Peace Talks<br><br><div dir=3D"ltr"><font c=
olor=3D"#0b5394"><font face=3D"trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><b>Lee, one reflect=
ion I want to send this, hastily as it is written on my part, to my "Edgele=
ft" list. Many of whom may have gotten it already from an earlier posting t=
onight. The situation in Ukraine is too tragic not to speak out while there=
is time. My cats are fine - thanks for asking.<br><br>David<br></b></font>=
</font><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Fe=
b 10, 2015 at 3:04 AM, David McReynolds <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" mce_href=3D"mailto:david=
[email protected]">[email protected]</a>></span> wrote:<br>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; paddi=
ng-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px=
; border-left-style: solid;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><font color=3D"#0b5394">=
<b><font face=3D"trebuchet ms,sans-serif">I don't mind at all and will add =
some comments of my own. Much of the American media (and many us in general=
) see the Ukraine in terms of the old Soviet Union, either leaping to a def=
ense of Russia or to total hostility to it (as if we are <span>refighting</=
span> the Cold War)</font></b></font>.<br><br></div><div><font color=3D"#0b=
5394"><b><font face=3D"trebuchet ms,sans-serif">There is no sense of histor=
y. Not <span>ev</span>en a longer range sense of European history in which =
at one time Sweden had an empire and Russia was a minor power (some of the =
<span>sp</span>ices used in Swedish co<span>oking</span> reflect the old tr=
ade routes from Asia, across Africa, to Sweden), or the times when Poland o=
ccupied much of what is now Ukraine and Russia.<br><br></font></b></font></=
div><div><font color=3D"#0b5394"><b><font face=3D"trebuchet ms,sans-serif">=
We have simply ignored the fact that long before St<span>alin</span>, Napol=
eon burned Moscow, that there are no natural b<span>arriers</span> of mount=
ains or broad rivers that protect Russia. We gen<span>erally</span> forget =
or never knew <span>th</span>at the Soviet Union lost 27 million people in =
World War II and had every city and village, every dam, <span>ai</span><spa=
n>rfield</span>, <span>ra</span><span>ilroad</span> st<span>ation</span>, a=
nd factory destroyed on a line from Leningrad in the N<span>orth</span> thr=
ough the outskirts of Moscow (if you fly in, I suspect y<span>ou</span> wil=
l still see the a<span>nti</span>-tank emplacements between the airport and=
Moscow) to St<span>alingrad</span> in the South.<br><br></font></b></font>=
</div><div><font color=3D"#0b5394"><b><font face=3D"trebuchet ms,sans-serif=
">Stalin no doubt wanted to bring his version of "socialism" to Eastern Eur=
ope but he also wanted buffer zones. We have forgotten that Finland, which =
was allied with Hitler, and had <span>troo</span>p in <span>th</span>e fiel=
d against the Soviets, was <span>le</span>t alone after the war (though St<=
span>alin</span> took some importa<span>nt</span> bits of Finnish <span>te<=
/span><span>rritory</span>) because it was <span>tru</span><span>ly</span> =
neutral, that the Soviets left Austria (which had been under four power pos=
t-war rule) once it was agreed Austria would be truly neutral. We have forg=
otten (or never knew) that Stalin did not <span>incorpor</span>ate East Ger=
many<br></font></b></font></div><div><font color=3D"#0b5394"><b><font face=
=3D"trebuchet ms,sans-serif">into the Soviet Bloc until the West rejected t=
he Soviet effort to unite Germany as a <span>neutr</span>al, demilitarized =
state.<br><br></font></b></font></div><div><font color=3D"#0b5394"><b><font=
face=3D"trebuchet ms,sans-serif">And it is abundantly clear that US and Br=
itish commentat<span>ors</span> have no sense of the desolation of the form=
er Soviet Union after the collapse of the USSR. The spread of AIDS, the app=
alling rate of alcoholism, the loss of national identity, the demoralizatio=
n of the veterans from the Afghan War. If Putin is popular it is because he=
has given Russians some sense of pride.<br><br></font></b></font></div><di=
v><font color=3D"#0b5394"><b><font face=3D"trebuchet ms,sans-serif">There i=
s much about Russia which I deplore - often bitterly. The homophobia of Put=
in, the corruption of the government, the rule by oligarchs (not so differe=
nt from here or Britain), the lack of a vital and democratic civil society.=
<br><br></font></b></font></div><div><font color=3D"#0b5394"><b><font face=
=3D"trebuchet ms,sans-serif">But to see in Putin a man who is trying to reb=
uild the old Soviet "empire" is worse than folly. To fail to grasp the fear=
Russia has of NATO (why in God's name didn't we dissolve NATO when the USS=
R collapsed?) - all of this drives me nuts. To hear, day after day, the dis=
tortions by our commentators, the failure even to remember something as sim=
ple and basic as the fact the party which was ousted in the coup (a corrupt=
party - both main parties were and are) had its voter strength precisely i=
n the Eastern part of Ukraine.<br><br></font></b></font></div><div><font co=
lor=3D"#0b5394"><b><font face=3D"trebuchet ms,sans-serif">We must not give =
up - there are no "good guys" in this bloody mess which has taken over 5,00=
0 lives. But in God's name let us realize that Germany and France want to a=
chieve a settlement (as I think Putin does) but the US war party seems dete=
rmined to see more dead and dying.<br><br></font></b></font></div><div><fon=
t color=3D"#0b5394"><b><font face=3D"trebuchet ms,sans-serif">Peace,<br></f=
ont></b></font></div><div><font color=3D"#0b5394"><b><font face=3D"trebuche=
t ms,sans-serif">David McReynolds<br>New York<br>former chair, War Resister=
s International (and on this matter expressing my own views, not those of a=
ny organization) <br></font></b></font></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><d=
iv class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">O=
n Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 6:03 PM, lee <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:=
[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" mce_href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">lee@wilpf.=
ch</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, =
204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;">
<p><span style=3D"font-size: large;">Hi David,</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: large;">Hope you don't mind my occasional nitp=
icking.</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: large;">BBC reporting ain't what it used to be=
.</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: large;">Here are a couple of gems I picked up =
out of this potpourri :</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: large;">From amidst the analysis of Jonathan M=
arcus, BBC Diplomatic correspondent in Munich :</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: large;"><i>"The level of frustration many West=
ern countries feel against Russia's policies has been palpable. Mr. Hammond=
(UK Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond) for example branded President Vladim=
ir Putin as "some kind of 20th Century tyrant." </i></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: large;">Doesn't seem to fit with other reporti=
ng today as in Tyler Durdin.....the quotes by Germany's SP party leader Gab=
riel, M. Sarkozy in France, etc.</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: large;">End box contained some remarkable stat=
ements :</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: large;"><i>"More than a million Ukrainians hav=
e fled their homes since April 2014, when the rebels seized a big swathe o=
f the Luhansk and Donetsk regions following Russia's annexation of Crimea.=
"</i></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: large;">More correctly, those millions fled ma=
inly due to continuous shelling by rockets and missiles of their cities and=
towns on the part of the Ukrainian military<i> -- </i>not as seems implied=
by rebels seizing land<i>. </i>Land which in any case was not seized but d=
efended by it's inhabitants<i>. </i>Additional reasons for flight mig=
ht have been lack of food and water in some areas, cutting off of administr=
ative support (like pensions) by Kiev government, sudden homelessness due t=
o shelling, fear on part of women and children whose husbands had gone off =
to join the militias. <i></i></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: large;">Finally.....<i><br></i></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: large;"><i>"Much of the recent fighting has be=
en focused on the strategic town of Debaltseve. The Ukrainian military sai=
d on Sunday that rebels had made "numerous attempts" to storm government p=
ositions in the area over the past 24 hours, having subjected them to "mas=
sive shelling".</i></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: large;"><i>"It said rebels had sustained heavy=
losses, though the claim could not be verified. The past day of fighting =
also claimed the lives of 12 Ukrainian soldiers and 12 civilians, accordin=
g to Ukrainian and rebel sources."</i></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: large;">The above is another way of saying the=
the rebels have pretty well surrounded the Ukrainian troops in another ind=
efensible situation. Whatever the losses of the rebels may have been, the a=
rmy will sustain <b>much </b>greater losses even though some will manage to=
get out and save their skins, something that the rebels let or even encour=
age the ordinary recruit do pretty easily.</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: large;">Meanwhile, there's the Tribune de Gen=
=C3=A8ve -- which my neighbor kindly puts on my door knob each mornin=
g. Forces me to realise how a "normal" -- and rather conservative -- Swiss =
paper reports things. It's been very consistant. This morning brought=
a large photo of Porochenko in Munich, holding half a dozen "passports of =
Russian soldiers killed in the Donbass". Russian passports must be fa=
irly easily found in Ukraine, and yes, Russians fighters have been killed t=
here. Many, often of Ukrainian background, have come and joined up. So -- u=
ntil someone finally manages to get a photo of those reported thousands of =
Russian troops and their equipment, half a dozen passports will have to do.=
</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: large;">Also -- in the accompanying TdG articl=
e this morning, for the first time I noted Angela being described as an "ex=
-East German". We may be seeing that more often......</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: large;">And so it goes. How are your cats?</sp=
an></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: large;">Peace, Lee</span></p>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
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