Re: [ox-en] No more money trickery propaganda please

Productivity for some of us does not come from closing our view but
from opening it up, and of course there is an optimal point after
which you'd get declining margins of return.

But to close our view and focus so tightly on just one goal is counter
productive because it becomes a closed discussion with feedback loop.
Open is good, when it's open to a reasonable limit, i.e. can't discuss
porn but can discuss language. Open = alive, renewable. Closed = dead,
boring, going in circles, etc.

On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Franz Nahrada <[email protected]> wrote:
> Marc: totally interesting post, but totally off-topic.
>
> We need to find some focus here. I am very very tempted to indulge in this
> langauage discussion, because I brought the example of langauge not by
> accident, but again its quite difficult to confront so many subscribers
> with such a specialised discussion without relation to the subject. It
> should be the subject of totally new social relations and economical
> possibilities emerging that fascinates us together, not discussions about
> the nature of this and that.
>
> So coming to your point and trying to use your post constructively I
> rather would ask if language could be considered a good structural example
> for a non-market, free transfering structure of - if you like - "thought
> infrastructure" similar to Free Software or not. If you think (like others
> - that language routs in a non-verbal and non-visual process per se -- and
> I think you are closer to Chomsky than you think here --, you might still
> ask if the acts of expression of this thinking by language *alter* or
> *touch* or *enrich* the non-visual/non-verbal structure in your brain.
>
>  Its a very funny irony that Genevieve Vaughan was originally married to
> linguist Ferrucio Rossi - Landi whose book "language as labour and market"
> caused a lot of excitement and controversy in students circles when it was
> published in German in 1974. It is very interesting because it also was
> such an example of that postmodernist way of thinking that Smari just felt
> uncomfortable with.
>
> Like some of us did at the time, Genevieve also had to breakt the limits
> of that thinking, take up the positive impusle and the provocation of this
> strange juxtaposition,  and study the real nature of the phenomenon that
> she was dealing with. It is another story that she might have been ending
> with locking it into the walls of another concept. But that is also good,
> because if "Giving" can not adequately describe the nature of the process,
> we discover a deeper pattern that is neither giving nor labour nor market.
> Wow - how much I would like to write my theory of language right away here
> but I must disappoint you and myself. The only thing that I say here is
> that the structure obviously refines itself by constant use and attention.
> It cannot exist without social interaction, maybe even defining what
> social interaction is and not the other way round. (Hi Sociologists!)
>
> Having said this, I apologize that I brought those remarks and created an
> easy excuse for some people not to focus on the main question that I asked
> of how to frame the Oekonux list so it becomes something special and
> unique with its task of advancing us in the study of the phenomena of peer
> production. Maybe one should come up with a list of questions that we dont
> know the answer to but want to find it, not just want but need badly. And
> with suspicions why we would find the answer especially here.
>
> Franz
>
>
> Marc Fawzi writes:
>
>>I have no native tongue per se so when I think I don't think in words.
>>There are many people like me and it may be the norm for all I know.
>>
>>The closest way to describing it is "I stare at something, most likely
>>something totally unrelated like the ceiling or my laptop screen or
>>anything, and all the sudden patterns emerge non-visually and
>>non-audibly and all I can feel is that there is something going on in
>>my mind, i.e. a felt experience of commotion or patterns emerging and
>>coming together, unraveling or destroying each other, and then I start
>>writing down or drawing some idea or scheme.
>>
>>Where is "language" in that?
>>
>>Background:
>>We've been moving around from place to place since I was 2 years old,
>>and eventually at age 15 we settled in English speaking countries but
>>English was only as a written medium for me (i didn't socialize much
>>until I was 27) so I have 10 years total of English as a spoken
>>language and only fragmented ability to speak two foreign languages
>>besides English.
>>
>>I don't hear words or narratives when I "think" unless I am parsing a
>>written sentence or constructing one. It's easy with maths and
>>software since it's all symbolic (non-spoken, except labels, numbers
>>and variables)
>
> _________________________________
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>



-- 

Marc Fawzi
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