Re: [ox-en] Necessary growth (was: Re: Explanation of interest)

The growth issue is really a hot issue because it is a little bit more
complicated. Actually the distinction between "material growth" and
"immaterial growth" is quite a problematic one when it comes to the
concrete issues of dealing with peak oil and climate change. Even our most
immaterial thoughts and concepte have to do with material realities, with
different concepts of living, producing, housing etc. that need material
processes to replace the current unsustainable patterns.

The issue is complictaed because the levels of material development are
absolutely different in verious strata of the world and even a steady
state would mean degrowth for many. There is no hint that s development of
this kind can be realistically tackled without a fundamental vision of
entirely different life-support systems. Global Villages is part of that
vision, not the entire vision. I have strong doubts that Geo-Engineering
is part of that vision, but we need to be open.

Andreas Exner and others have tried to look from a leftist perspective
into the issue and came up with sobering results; we might even lack the
material means to make some of the most important transformations
possible. In their book "The Limits to Capitalism" they describe how
important components to move to solar (eg. metals for photovoltaics) are
by themselves scarce. I think there is lots of ingenuity needed and thats
one of the prime issues to be faced by peer production.

Again this is a discussion that has reached much higher standards
elsewhere, for example in the transition movement, and I think its a proof
of rhe patterns concept to understand that we need to understand several
perspectives to know where we get the solution energy from. Thanks Alex
for the flowers, I want to reiterate that there are patterns that resonate
and we must understand that the growth issue is really not our strength
here.

Franz

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