Re: [ox-en] Website

[Converted from multipart/alternative]

[1 text/plain]
Hi all

I am "on the move" so cannot write as much as I should.

Re audience I agree with Stefan Mn below: the core message should appeal to as many as possib;e; later there could be subpages "for hackers", "for academics", "for office workers" etc.

In my view to make the website attractive it would help to have regularly updated content and / or interactivity.

Possibly there could be a [link to a] new featured text on the front page each month: this would be a way to rebuild from the ground up by re-introducing new and old "important" [ox] texts.

Also I think it would be good to have some interaction where a person involved in the theory or practice of peer production responds to people / engages in dialogue every month.

In terms of producing theory I think it would help focus to have some clear directions for research e.g.:
- what are the practical problems faced by peer projects (money, expertise...)
- how can can peer production be extended?
- ??

Finally I want to raise the question of aesthetics. Evidently for StefanMn it is important that the tools used conform to certain standards. Another concern is that the website look and feel good. Now, I just don't have the time to learn reStructuredText. All I care about is to have an excellent website. But now we come to the tricky question of taste and of what the tsoftware can do. Maybe the easiest would be to give examples of what we think are "good-looking" websites. 
The basic form could be a wiki format a la Wikipedia or P2PFoundation:
http://p2pfoundation.net/The_Foundation_for_P2P_Alternatives
Or it could be more like a magazine with short extracts see for example: http://politics.theatlantic.com/

Other ideas..?.

cheers
mathieu

----- Original Message -----
From: Stefan Merten <[email protected]>
Date: Thursday, May 14, 2009 8:09 am
Subject: Re: [ox-en] Website
To: [email protected]
Cc: Stefan Merten <[email protected]>

> Hi Mathieu, StefanMz, all!
> 
> 2 days ago Stefan Meretz wrote:
> > I am interested in having a better ox website.
> 
> :-)
> 
> I'll also comment on the website here. The book idea is also
> interesting but the website is really a pressing topic.
> 
> BTW: I started a new top level page in the Oekonux Wiki [1]_ gathering
> all the initiatives_ and ideas which came up after the conference.
> However, it's not complete yet.
> 
> .. _initiatives: http://en.wiki.oekonux.org/Initiatives
> 
> .. [1] The top level pages are meant to be mother pages for sub
>        projects in the Oekonux 
> Wiki. They are related to but not part
>        of the core of the Oekonux 
> project.
> In the same manner I created a page gathering all ideas_ about 
> the web
> site.
> 
> .. _ideas: http://en.wiki.oekonux.org/Oekonux/Project/WebSite/Ideas
> 
> Once again: I'm really open for ideas concerning the website. The
> current website - given today's standards - is really bad and 
> I'm open
> to all suggestions.
> 
> > Before starting with the question of purpose I like to ask 
> what the main 
> > goal of an oekonux website is and who is to be addressed. If 
> goal and 
> > target group is clear, then purpose or functions of a website 
> can be 
> > better discussed IMHO.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> > I am sure, that goal and target group are far from being evident.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> To raise participation in this process I think it would be good 
> if we
> could have a picture of the opinions about possible goals, target
> groups and the like. We could use the Wiki for this because 
> there is a
> voting plugin installed. But first I'll try to make the goals and
> target groups more concrete.
> 
> > Goal
> 
> Below I replaced your list, StefanMz, with all the goals I found so
> far in the discussion and did document on the ideas_ page. Also thanks
> for the extensive list! Gives really food for thought and in a way
> says something about where Oekonux could/should go to!
> 
> * Get the message out
> 
>   This would mean in the first place to get the political 
> message of
>   the Oekonux project out. As Mathieu I think it should be 
> done on the
>   one hand in a more "superficial" way to address quick 
> readers with
>   low level of background. And on the other hand it should 
> be done in
>   a deeper sense - which would mean to present all the theory
>   fragments Oekonux developed so far. This would replace 
> the current
>   introduction probably.
> 
>   In any case I think this is one of the most important 
> goals of the
>   web site.
> 
> * Get new people interested and involved
> 
>   Well, if people end up on the website and they read a bit 
> they are
>   already interested. The question is perhaps: What to do 
> if they get
>   more interested - and to me it is clearly a goal to get 
> them more
>   interested.
> 
>   As far as the involvement is concerned: It would be great 
> to involve
>   more people in Oekonux. But a short welcome and what they 
> gain from
>   becoming part of the community is probably all that is 
> needed. I
>   don't want to bother people with "Join the project" all 
> the time.
> 
>   I'd consider this also an important goal.
> 
> * Inform about peer production
> 
>   This could either mean to inform about peer production 
> projects or
>   about the theory of peer production. The latter I'd 
> consider being
>   part of "Get the message out".
> 
>   The first is more interesting because then we would 
> qualify projects
>   - or rather peer production project *groups* like 
> OpenAccess - as
>   peer production or not. Similar to the award idea that 
> would need to
>   make us think hard about good criteria and sure would be 
> useful.
>   Though I think the idea of qualifying projects is good 
> I'm a bit
>   worried about the continuous effort this needs to do it 
> seriously.  However, it would take less continuous and 
> timely effort than the
>   award idea.
> 
> * Foster debates around peer production
> 
>   As Mathieu I'd think this is the job of the mailing 
> list(s). So I
>   think this should not be done on the website (apart from 
> documenting  the mailing lists there).
> 
> * Collect theories of peer production
> 
>   As Mathieu I think there are good resources already for 
> this - as
>   the P2P Foundation Wiki. The problem is that these 
> resources does
>   not reflect the stricter perspective of Oekonux. If 
> cooperation is
>   possible again and Michel allows we could have a category 
> "Oekonux"  in his Wiki.
> 
> * Influence politics
> 
>   Nice thought :-) . However, addressing real-existing 
> politics /
>   politicians needs lots of compromises and in the end 
> would mean a
>   lot of alienation for the goals of Oekonux as a theory 
> project. I
>   think we should stick to the more radical and independent 
> manner of
>   Oekonux so I don't see this as a goal.
> 
>   If Oekonux turns (partly) more into a movement then there 
> could be
>   specialized sites, however.
> 
> * Evaluate new developments
> 
>   Similar to the first variant of "Inform about peer production".
> 
> * Doing research on questions around peer production
> 
>   Well, what would research actually mean here? I think on 
> the one
>   hand it is creating theory and on the other hand it is doing
>   empirical research.
> 
>   Creation of theory is mostly a rather communicative 
> process. Again
>   I'd say the mailing list(s) are more appropriate for this.
>   Documentation of the results on the other hand at least 
> partly falls
>   into the deeper part of "Get the message out".
> 
>   As far as empirical research is concerned: I'd love to 
> have this in
>   Oekonux by real scientific standards. But I don't see how 
> this can
>   be accomplished becaue we don't have the resources. The 
> only thing I
>   could imagine is to suggest empirical research and hope 
> that some
>   established researcher picks up our ideas [2]_. *That* on 
> the other
>   hand would be very useful to have on the website.
> 
>   .. [2] See one such attempt_ in the Wiki.
> 
>   .. _attempt: 
> http://en.wiki.oekonux.org/Oekonux/Research/MeasuringCommercialInfluences
> * Develop an "Oekonux theory"
> 
>   Similar to "Doing research on questions around peer 
> production" I
>   think the developing - or rather: putting things together and
>   documenting stuff - is more a communicative thing and 
> thus belongs
>   to the mailing list(s). Documentation of the results 
> belongs to the
>   website as part of "Get the message out".
> 
> Well, these are my thoughts so far. Every additional thought is
> welcome.
> 
> > Target Group
> 
> Again I replaced your list with the more complete list from the
> gathered ideas_.
> 
> * The masses
> 
>   Well, of course this sounds very sexy and a bit like propaganda
>   (sic!). This would be probably more part of a movement.
> 
>   The question to me is whether it makes sense to address 
> the masses
>   in this sense. So far peer production did well without a 
> theoretical  explanation why it is useful.
> 
>   Nonetheless as Mathieu I think part of "Get the message 
> out" should
>   be understandable by everybody.
> 
> * General audience
> 
>   I understand by this that a general audience is informed. 
> Which is
>   probably the meaning of "Get the message out".
> 
> * People who like P2P music etc (pirate party voters)
> 
>   This is probably somewhere between "the masses" and "general
>   audience".
> 
> * Then there are a number of special groups:
> 
>   * Activists of free/open peer projects
> 
>   * Theorists of peer production
> 
>   * People being interested in emancipatory movements
> 
>   * Politicians
> 
>   * Other movements
> 
>   * Hackers, engineers who are not political
> 
>   * Left political people who have never heard of peer production
> 
>   I wonder what it means to address these specially. Or 
> rather: I
>   think the Oekonux website should stand for the Oekonux project.
>   Since I like it that the Oekonux project is not a 
> missionary project
>   I think the website's goal should not be to address any 
> particular  special group. Rather in general it should be 
> neutral in this
>   regard. What do others think on this?
> 
>   What could be done, however, is to create special pages 
> for special
>   groups which make Oekonux easier to access for the respective
>   special group. For instance for Free Software developers 
> you could
>   start with Free Software while the Leftists are probably more
>   interested in the emancipatory potential of peer 
> production. I could
>   imagine this makes sense.
> 
> > These are only ideas hopefully provoking your ideas.
> 
> Any more ideas?
> 
> When I think about it and re-read this mail for the fourth time 
> I feel
> I very much think in Oekonux as a theory project. However, since the
> first conference there were thoughts to see Oekonux more as a
> movement. Today I think something like this is possible. 
> However, it
> seems to me more like two legs of one body. A movement is in a 
> way a
> contradiction to theory because for a movement you need to simplify
> things - sometimes beyond recognition...
> 
> > I don't know, if 
> > this can work in a mailinglist discussion.
> 
> Well, the discussion can be here. The documentation I'll do in the
> Wiki.
> 
> > On 2009-05-11 15:55, Mathieu O'Neil wrote:
> >> What purpose should the website have?
> 
> I only respond to points which are not covered above.
> 
> >> - Should it be an archive of texts (like now)? In my view there
> >> should of course be an archival section, but as Franz argued 
> a while
> >> back it should not be a comprehensive archive, this already exists
> >> (P2P...).
> 
> The mailing list archives need to be kept. Otherwise see above.
> 
> >> I think the website should have these main functions:
> >> 
> >> (a) it should articulate clearly how peer production is a 
> germ form
> >> for a society without exchange - short texts, slogans, etc
> 
> The "superficial" (looking for a better word) part of the "Get the
> message out" section.
> 
> >> (b) it should have some longer theories to back up (a): this 
> already>> exists
> 
> The deeper part of the "Get the message out" section.
> 
> >> (c) it should provide concrete examples of how peer 
> production is
> >> working now (free software and hardware)
> 
> This is probably the first variant of "Inform about peer production".
> 
> >> (d) it should provide concrete examples of how peer 
> production might
> >> be applied to other sectors. This is a key point. What can be 
> done to
> >> extend peer production?
> 
> This is more or less the goal of the `drawing board`_ initiative.
> 
> .. _drawing board: http://en.wiki.oekonux.org/Oekonux/DrawingBoard
> 
> >> (e) finally, it should offer some means of dialogue between 
> the ox
> >> community and others
> 
> Can you specify what you are thinking of here?
> 
> >> Concretely:
> >> 
> >> (a) These definitions should be written collaboratively by whoever
> >> wants to lend a hand and then submitted to the list within a
> >> reasonable time frame so that the process does not drag on forever
> >> 
> >> (b) at this stage it is not cost-effective to redo everything 
> so I am
> >> thinking we can have links to the old website for particularly
> >> interesting texts
> 
> This is mostly a matter of text formats. Some parts are already in
> reStructuredText_ and the rest I can convert. And if possible 
> I'd like
> to keep the source in this format [3]_. So this is not a technical
> problem.
> 
> .. _reStructuredText: http://docutils.sourceforge.net/rst.html
> 
> .. [3] In fact I'm already looking for content management systems
>        which use reStructuredText_.
> 
> >> (c) pretty obvious, no need to dwell on it - a page of links 
> would do
> >> 
> >> (d) I think there needs to be a focused effort by the 
> community to
> >> come up with short, sharp summaries of how peer production 
> can start
> >> being applied right now to new areas. For example, there has 
> been a
> >> discussion on p2p and ox lists about education. But without going
> >> into details about how this would work in a future where everything
> >> is free, how could peer production be used _right now_ in the
> >> education sector?
> >> 
> >> (e) interactivity will help to attract people.  What I 
> an suggesting
> >> is that people with a strong interest in peer production (basically
> >> anyone on the lists, though obviously people like Christian and
> >> Michel for example (who have big websites) or Smari or 
> whomever would
> >> agree to debate all comers on an open wiki. This could be 
> restricted>> to certain days (once or twice a week) during a 
> month. We would
> >> "advertise" this widely over the net - Oekonux monthly / ? 
> /quarterly>> dialogues or whatever. We could publish a summary 
> after each one.
> >> 
> >> I am happy to help coordinate within reason but (a) (d) and 
> (e) rely
> >> on community input. If no-one speaks up, I will let it slide -
> its
> >> not like I don't have enough to do already...
> 
> No, no, let's do this please.
> 
> 2 days ago Mathieu O'Neil wrote:
> > Should we tailor a different message for each constituency? I don't
> > think so.
> 
> See above. A special fetching people from where they are could be
> useful to guide them to the main stream :-) .
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> As one of the next steps I could imagine to try some things out on
> some play ground. The Wiki looks like the obvious place for me.
> 
> I also will consolidate all I wrote above a bit in ideas_.
> 
> 
>                                         	Grüße
> 
>                                         	Stefan
> _________________________________
> Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/
> Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/
> Contact: [email protected]

****
Dr Mathieu O'Neil
Adjunct Research Fellow
Australian Demographic and Social Research Institute
College of Arts and Social Science
The Australian National University

E-mail: [email protected]
Tel.: (61 02) 61 25 38 00
Web: http://adsri.anu.edu.au/people/visitors/mathieu.php
Mail: Coombs Building, 9
Canberra, ACT 0200 - AUSTRALIA





[2 text/html]
_________________________________
Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/
Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/
Contact: [email protected]